Critique and Feedback -- please discuss

[Leanne]

Currently, the site's position on critique, feedback and general interaction can be found here.

For the purposes of discussion, I've reposted it here. It's clear that not everyone has read it, or that it's been read and disregarded, or that you may have fundamental problems with one or two points, or maybe even religious objection/ political aversion/ sociological disgust... I don't know, but whatever it is, please get it out in the open and we'll come to a compromise -- even if it's as simple as "it's too hard to find" or "I don't like the way you're looking at me..."

Don't hold back. Nobody will hunt you down and shock you into submission if you disagree with us. If you've been scared/nervous/uncertain about commenting because of something here, tell us. (If you just don't want to comment, obviously that's your call, we can't win 'em all.)

The Ins and Outs of Critique and Feedback

* Remember that this is not your writing. Ask yourself what the author wants to achieve and how best that goal can be met within the existing framework of the piece. Do not attempt to impose your own style on another writer; a good reviewer will in fact impose the writer’s style on him/herself for the duration of the critique.


* Consider that the speaker/voice of the writing is not always that of the author, even if it uses an I. It is a mistake to assume that anything written in the first person is always autobiographical, and to do so can in fact offend. It is possibly best to avoid giving “life advice” in a critique, other than as a direct requirement for interpretation of the piece.

* Expect that every piece of writing posted may eventually be ready for publication, and do your best to help it get there. Even the tiniest word can make a difference – be thorough. This does not mean that you should look only for flaws – rather, ask yourself if what you are suggesting will really enhance the writing. Remove weaknesses, enhance strengths – at all times try to be balanced in your criticism and explain yourself when it is needed.

* Examine all aspects: technical merit, possible meanings, aesthetics and effectiveness. A piece that is technically brilliant may fall short in aesthetics or originality; if it’s aesthetically pleasing it may not really make an impact. Try to work out why. If you are not sure of the technique used, it is often a good idea to find out before you write your review. This not only provides the most help to the author, it also increases your own knowledge.

* Never use criticism of writing as a means to criticise the author. Never attack the critic. Conducting personal feuds via critiques and/or writing posts does nothing to nurture the written word and is detrimental to poetry itself. Be gracious in the acceptance of feedback, someone has gone to the trouble of reading and responding to your work. A 'thank you' goes a long way.

* Equally, criticism of writing should not be used to ingratiate oneself with the author. Flattery is in fact very damaging, creating a false idea of one’s ability. Praise good work, certainly, but never with empty words. Make it clear that you have read the piece and explain why you appreciate it. No comments should be made in an attempt to solicit comments in return. A give-and-take in reviews is preferable but should never be demanded. If you respond with honest feedback to the works of others, you will more often than not get an honest responses to your own works in return.

* Authors should not clarify the poem or it's intent unless requested to do so . Answer salient questions by all means but giving the game away could lose you valuable critique.

*Try and keep the poem as the main topic of conversation.

* Trolling and in house fighting will not be tolerated on the poetry boards, use the 'Pig's Arse' to settle slanging matches or disagreements.


Hints & Tips For A Good Community

See one, do one, teach one

The Pig Pen is a unique internet poetry environment. Here, we come together not only as writers; we are readers, students, teachers, motivators and muses. Every one of us has knowledge and experience to share and we expect it to be shared freely for the benefit of all. Poetry is about people, and the more social interaction you have, the greater your source of inspiration -- so being an active part of the community is not only polite, it will improve your poetry.

I’m embarrassed to show other people what I’ve written.

Everyone starts somewhere. Look at the most experienced writers on the site and imagine where they’d be if they’d never taken that first step toward improvement. Don’t be intimidated. The worst that can happen is that people don’t immediately love it and give you ideas for making your writing better. Nobody in history has written their most brilliant poem straight off the top of the head with no prior experience – look into the files of the great poets and you’re bound to find some absolute howlers. So go on, take the plunge.



But I’m not qualified to comment on other people’s poetry.


Rubbish. If you can write, you can read. If you can read, you’re the audience the poet writes for. Make an effort. The more you read other people’s poetry, the more you’ll find other people reading yours. We are much more likely to share our time and thoughts with people who do the same.




But they said something mean and I’m devastated.


All poets at The Pig Pen are asked to accept comments, both positive and negative, graciously and in the spirit of community growth. If you, the poet, censure the reader for having an opinion, you may find you have difficulty attracting readers in the future. Instead, invite the reader to explain their comment further. Their point may be something you had never considered, and it may just make you a better writer. Of course, it’s possible they’re just being irritating, in which case you’re perfectly entitled not to bother reading their work in return. Vendettas are not encouraged; bullet holes will ruin the décor.




I don’t understand what the comment meant.


Well, ask. Sometimes the most valuable learning tools on a site such as this are the dialogues developed between reader and writer, hashing over a point of technique or the nuances of metaphor. We also encourage other readers to engage with the discussions, where appropriate, and see what develops.




Everything I write is perfect, straight from the heart and editing will only destroy my artistic integrity.

The Pig Pen is not the site for you. Do keep in touch, we’re always impressed by true, effortless genius. Can’t wait to hear how you’ve single-handedly revolutionised the world of poetry.

Now, over to you guys. Please. It's kind of important. When you're not happy, we're not happy, and we like being happy

[billy]

personally i think the guidelines are spot on.

no matter what a site does, it will never be able to call forth into giving feedback, those who do not wish to give feedback. and equally so, it will never stop those of the thinner skinned taking umbridge at the feedback they get if they don't agree with it. we can do almost any and everything to accommodate those with the will to work (for want of a better word) but we can't change how they think or feel, that's an acquired skill that only comes through time and sticking the course; what ever that course may be. in a half decent poetry group the course (beside writing poetry) is to learn how to give and receive feedback without slitting a wrist and bleeding out. i understand some aren't into the feedback think or simply enjoy the reading of poetry and crit given etc. that's a good thing i think. but for those who wish to improve, if only by a small amount; they have to be able to take and understand what critique or feedback is or isn't all about.

it's isn't about us laying down the law to them. it's about us saying what it does for us the reader and how we think it makes us feel that way. it's about them reading what was said and then deciding what if any of it to use. it's about honesty and (as far as i'm concerned) kindness.

for instance; we don't say "that's a shite piece of poetry" we say. the poem doesn't work for me here and here because...we say this part works for me because.... we say the poem has poetential if you can sort out this or these few lines to make it....

they should say; thanks for taking the time to read, i'll see if anything you said is something i could use in an edit, they should say; (to themselves) mmm 6 people have mentioned something being the same problem in their reading of the thing, perhaps i should look at that part more closely and try to understand why they're having trouble.
they should say; (to themselves) i don't agree wit that but i'll say thank you anyway because of the time and effort they obviously put into it.

they should say to themselves before posting; am i ready and able to take take the kind of crit and feedback i see being regularly used in the serious, or mild critique forum.

we should say; (to ourselves) i'll adjust my feedback because i can see from his work he should really be posting in a lower forum. if it persists i'll send him a polite pm to explain why i'm not ripping the poem a new arse-hole and that i'm there should they require any mentoring.

what we or they should never say is; Fuck it, i'm off, this is just too much.

alas we can never stop they from saying; Fuck it, i'm off, this is just too much.
should they be of that mind. jmo

[Todd]

I think the guidelines are solid. They're informative and set the right tone.

I have nothing to add to them.

[Indie]

I see no problems with the guidelines, I do think that more people should read them. I know I've only been here a few days, and I do my best to follow them, but I've already had people approach my poetry as they'd like to see it, not how best I should express it for myself. I'm not offended, I see their point, but I do find it doesn't lend it self to the editing process in a very productive way.

[Wildcard]

I see no problems with the guidelines, I do think that more people should read them. I know I've only been here a few days, and I do my best to follow them, but I've already had people approach my poetry as they'd like to see it, not how best I should express it for myself. I'm not offended, I see their point, but I do find it doesn't lend it self to the editing process in a very productive way.

I agree completely, Indie. I think if the critic can't find any way to help the poem as-is then they should consider holding back before posting suggestions for a major overhaul. At least be sure you understand what the poet is trying to do. JMO (Just My Opinion)

[Indie]

I agree completely, Indie. I think if the critic can't find any way to help the poem as-is then they should consider holding back before posting suggestions for a major overhaul. At least be sure you understand what the poet is trying to do. JMO (Just My Opinion)

I think we're all guilty of wanting to impose our will on people sometimes, hit them in the head and tell them that we know best, when it's not our poem, and it's not our job to rewrite it to our own style. All we can do is offer our advice on how we think the poem can be improved in a constructive manner, like spelling, grammar, punctuation, phrasing, cliches, clarity etc.

---

And be happy with whether or not they take our advice.

[Leanne]

I see no problems with the guidelines, I do think that more people should read them. I know I've only been here a few days, and I do my best to follow them, but I've already had people approach my poetry as they'd like to see it, not how best I should express it for myself. I'm not offended, I see their point, but I do find it doesn't lend it self to the editing process in a very productive way.

I have a feeling we're going to get along just fine

[Touchstone]

To be honest I haven't read them and I have no intention of doing so. Of course I do bugger all critiquing but when I do it's honest and well intentioned. I trust myself to be able to post appropriately, the people I'm critiquing to be able to accept it in the spirit in which it's intended, and the mods to be able to tell whether either of us has gotten it wrong.

Seriously, you don't want anyone posting here if they have to read a whole page of rules to know what it is they should and should not be saying. So the only reason the rules exist is to salve your consciences when you slap someone for being a dumbass. Harden up. Detailed rules will never cover everything and if you feel someone needs slapping then you're probably right, regardless of whether they've skirted just inside or just outside of whatever is set down in black and white in some thread which nobody ever reads.

[Leanne]

Yes, of course you're right, why the fuck do we bother with anything?

[Touchstone]

You sound peeved. You shouldn't be, for two reasons. Firstly, you asked for opinions. Secondly, if you remove the stick from your ass and go back and read what I've actually written it's that I trust your judgment both on what you've written and, more importantly, on how you apply it.

If all you were wanting was fawning admiration for your wall of text: sorry to disappoint you but, frankly, nobody who needs to learn those lessons will ever bother reading it, and anyone who does bother will fall asleep before they finish.

[billy]

oh goodie, a proper discourse

i think the rules are there in order to reinforce any moderation, i also think in a poetry forum they should be read.


the criteria of posting in novice and mild are different. in novice and serious, really different. while most have a good idea how to act in a general forum, how to act in a poetry forum can be a bit more tricky. in most cases a mod can nudge someone without any problems, if i get it wrong, i find the sensible people accept an apology. i can't remember ever using the warning system we have on a poet. i know from experience how easy it is to go overboard with feedback. for that, a short pleasant pm is always enough, even if we have to do it more than once, i'd sooner have an over enthusiastic critic than a silent one. like indie i prefer a similar sort of feedback but realise that sometimes it won't happen, in general i'm happy with any feedback i get. as a mod i try and look out for the newbs (i'm talking from the owners POV, though i have a member's POV as well) it so easy to overload their comprehension of poetry when they're setting out. it's the main reason for the different fora.
the problem i have is with supposedly intelligent people who think they can troll without getting face fucked. who argues the toss every time a mod says something or points something out (which is pretty rare here, and it usually by me)
if i have problems with mods on say suprbay, i take to their equivalent of our sewer and lampoon the fuckers with my trolling there. as a member and not a mod, i don't think it fair to argue the toss in the general threads. of course i may try and point something out they missed if i think they were wrong, but even then i'd only do it once.

while it is easy to know what feedback to give where, it's also very fucking hard. which is why a soft nudge should be used instead of warnings. sadly some take a soft nudge a blow it out of all proportion here, well one actually (ray, if you're listening, feel free to join in ) the members we have i'm really really happy with. if we (the regular older members) get an over the top crit in the fun section, just say thanks and have a goggle.

---

the wall of text [rules] while they're lumped in with all the other forum rules they do look a bit wallish don't they? hoever; they are placed at the top of each of the poetry forums in a condensed version that are more like a few bricks. they're easy to read and it doesn't take more than a moment. thay were done like that so people (you listening ray?) can't say what fuckin rules, or these are the rules i want to use.

so i'm happy with the way the feedback works here. we don't act like a 4chan site and we don't act like a fondle sight. i think we have good balance with feedback and moderation.

[Touchstone]

the problem i have is with supposedly intelligent people who think they can troll without getting face fucked.

That is my point. Most people behave reasonably regardless of "the rules." Some people behave unreasonably regardless of "the rules" and some people try to use "the rules" to justify their unreasonable behavior.

As far as rules go, what you have is fine. Could probably be better, could certainly be worse but it's not worth worrying over because the real job of a mod (and the real expectation of a member) is not rigid adherence to a set of perfectly crafted sentences, it's ensuring reasonable behavior over time within the context of given topics.

"Low intensity" trolls who continually push the limits of the rules without ever blatantly overstepping them are more dangerous to a community than someone who comes in drunk one night and flames someone once in a serious critique thread.

[billy]

plus the drunk trolls can actually be funny.

[Erthona]

The primary, as well as indispensable "rule" for valid poetry critique is to (as it is stated here) critique the poem and not the writer. I offer the following as ways I make that distinction.

I try and make two distinctions when critiquing: what is objectively problematic with the poem, and what I think might be improved stylistically, which I note is purely personal. I try to stay away from commenting on the content in terms of agreeing with or disagreeing with it (of course sometimes I can't resists, but I will generally note that it has nothing to do with the critique). I acknowledge when I am aware of having a bias in a certain area (I do not consider that one should strive towards good grammar usage as a bias).

Finally, if I cannot read something without taking it personally, or becoming angry, then I should probably not offer a critique.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't necessarily agree with all of the posted rules, however, I do try and follow them as that to me is an unspoken agreement for using any site. As far as I am concerned to do otherwise is inherently dishonest, not to mention childish and repulsive.

Dale

[Indie]

The primary, as well as indispensable "rule" for valid poetry critique is to (as it is stated here) critique the poem and not the writer. I offer the following as ways I make that distinction.

I try and make two distinctions when critiquing: what is objectively problematic with the poem, and what I think might be improved stylistically, which I note is purely personal. I try to stay away from commenting on the content in terms of agreeing with or disagreeing with it (of course sometimes I can't resists, but I will generally note that it has nothing to do with the critique). I acknowledge when I am aware of having a bias in a certain area (I do not consider that one should strive towards good grammar usage as a bias).

Finally, if I cannot read something without taking it personally, or becoming angry, then I should probably not offer a critique.

I completely agree with you here, on all points. How we feel about a poet should not affect the way we critique their work. And a poem that provokes us in an emotional way should be left alone from a critique, as there is no way we can approach it objectively, which is the point of a critique, to remain objective in our advice.