The PigPen's Resplendent Kaffeeklatsch

[milo]

Good morning everyone!

[Quixilated]

Good morning everyone!

Good morning. 

So, First let me share her observations.  She is Gen Z and as you probably know, they all struggle with anxiety already.  She thinks it would be very intimidating to show up at a new site and immediately try to critique other people's writing when you are not sure what you are doing and you are brand new.

Now we know, most people who come here have a poem they want feedback on.  They are excited, we get that.  What if we allowed them to post the poem first and then owe us the feedback after they have looked around a bit?

I know when I joined the site we were getting 20 new poems a day posted and it was a bit much for us to keep up with them all but now, I feel like we could afford to give a little leeway to get new people into poetry and into the site.

After a while, we know people who hang around for a while love it and become valuable members and the rest just sod off anyway, nothing lost

To be fair, it is intimidating for almost everyone when they first show up and need to offer a critique. It's difficult to be new.  It's difficult to express opinions when you are still trying to figure out what the site or poetry even is.  It is difficult to jump into a new place and immediately tell a long-term member how they could improve their writing. It's not fun for anyone and we know this. Age or generation doesn't really apply here because we all find it terrifying (there are always exceptions, but the majority do). It is intimidating, we know this. But the site works this way for a reason, and we lose our purpose if we change too much. 

Additionally, 

1). If we don't catch newbies right out of the gate and make sure they know how the site works (it runs on reciprocity), then we are likely to lose sight of them. This would result in, perhaps, less anxiety at first, but also in more and more people posting only poems and leaving the burden of all the critique to the handful of committed members who have kept this site from dying. They have been Sisyphus and Atlas, and they really don't need to be asked to offer even more effort without anyone being required to give effort back to them. We also really don't have the people or the time to dig through the past or to count posts. It is easiest for us to monitor about the first five posts, and then they are basically in the wind. There are already some newbies who have slipped through the cracks because we were all busy with the holidays or whatever, and I am trying very hard to drum up even the smallest bit of give-a-damn in order to check through what I missed. 

2). While people who stick around tend to leave critique, that is because they have been required/taught to from day one. They stick around because they have realized they can handle how it works. Any time I've seen a member slide under the radar with critique (sometimes we are all busy and distracted), they have never begun to offer critique without being asked.  People who don't feel like leaving critique on day one will also not feel like leaving critique on day 30 or 60 or 300. You only learn that you can do it by having to do it. 

3). Getting someone to begin offering feedback five poems in is actually much more difficult than getting them to offer it for poem #one. We actually need that new-poem excitement.  That first poem is usually burning a hole in their pocket. They want to know if it's good, if it is even a poem, if they are somehow accidentally a poet-god and should immediately start publishing. That first poem won't stop whispering about all the possibilities. They are desperate to have anyone look at it and tell them if they are a poet or not, and/or if they are a good poet. They are usually willing to go through a bit of fire to get the answers. (The fire being critique in this scenario). After the first few poems, they have a lot of those burning questions answered (or at least less urgent), and they no longer have the same desperation which provides the adrenaline rush required for pushing go on that first critique. 

4). I have worked in education. I also have an anxiety disorder. I understand what you are saying about the anxiety generation, and I understand how anxiety an compound issues that were already complicated. I do think that, if they had to sign up when Tectak was here, many would not have survived. I almost didn't. I have never been a fan of being rough with people. I have always tried to word any mod notes as professionally and politely as possible. I do not believe in bullying or allowing others to be bullied. However, removing all obstacles and making sure nothing is hard is not a kindness. It is not harmful for people to have to do something difficult or even unpleasant in order to reach goals or to rise to new levels. It is not asking too much to require members of any age to give back in exchange for what they will get. This site is basically a free tutoring service. They might only be interested in learning to write poetry, but it will make them better poets if they also have to learn how to write critique.  As many have said in various discussion threads, learning how to critique a poem helps you see your own writing with a more discerning eye. 

5). No one is expected to write good critique at first, that is what the basic forum is for, to learn.  We never tell anyone their critique isn't good enough, in fact, we red-letter anyone who does comment on critique. (The only exception would be insufficient critique in the Intensive forum, but even then, we are much softer than we used to be and only bother the people who very obviously made no effort at all). It has been a while since you've been here, but soon you will perhaps realize that we really aren't being anywhere near a strict as we were when you were here last. We have gradually loosed every possible rule until there are only the most basic and essential rules remaining. If we take away any more rules, the site will become just another poetry showcase site, and it will no longer be the Pigpen. There are plenty of places where people can post poems without offering critique. This place is unique because it is not like those places. 

6). We have actually had many young poets pass through. I remember Kerbonzo was only 15 or 16 and was a prolific poet, offered actually good critique and feedback, and grew stronger in his writing during his time here. Though no one is obligated to tell their age, if they do tell us they are teens, we do give a bit more grace because we know they are figuring out life and the site simultaneously.  

To conclude and to clarify,

1). Yes, I am willing to not red-letter a new member's very first poem on this site if it is in the basic forum. If they have already been posting poems in the non-critique forums, this would no longer apply. If they post the poem in the other two critique forums, this would also not apply. Those forums require others to give a significant amount of time to their responses. It is only fair to them to ask the recipient to give some time back. 

2). It may not seem like a big deal for just one newbie to have their "free critique," but the ratio of newbies to members (while still less than it once was) is still significant. While we may have fewer newbies than in the past, we also have fewer active members, and they are already giving feedback to one another as well as every newbie who shows up. They already give more than they get, and have been for years. To ask for more from them doesn't seem fair, and would make me worry that we would lose the only ones who are keeping us going. I have already made it a habit to wait a day or two after a poem is posted before red-lettering to see if newbies will offer feedback on their own. Considering that we used to require three really solid critiques before one could even be granted access to posting rights, and now we barely require one at some point after your first poem but before your second, I feel like we've given about as much ground as we can afford to lose.

3). This is only my personal answer.  How Tiger, Todd, CRNDLSM, and Bryn feel will also need to be taken into account, because changing any part of the flow or workload affects all of them. 

I know it is a long answer. I don't want to be thought inflexible or unfair, but I also know that there were a few years where the only reason the site didn't die is because a small handful of members never stopped giving no matter how little they got in return. We wouldn't still be here if it weren't for them, and I don't want to make decisions that would make things harder rather than easier for them. 

Quix does most of the heavy lifting here so I'm happy to defer to her. She is accurate in saying almost nobody has been banned for posting without critiquing first. (unless that is coupled with Mod abuse or ignoring warnings) There really isn't a significant change to be made. If anything I might suggest rather than a scary. red lettered warning, we may be able to write a (standard greeting/thanks for posting/why crit is important/look forward to more) type response in a less ominous colour. 

Hello Milo and welcome to the Pigpen. Thanks for sharing your poem with us and we look forward to more from you. In the meantime please try your hand at providing feedback to others. It is a vital part of learning and integral to how the site functions. See you in the threads. 

Mod/Admin


Of course the poorly written sample above would be improved upon. We may already have something similar that Quix wrote in the INTROS thread. 

Actually, I rather like that.  I think I did start a "script" thread at some point.  I'll see if I can find it and we can all perfect the wording and then copy and paste our notes (for ease as well as for continuity).  Changing the color is fine with me, at least, experimentally.  The only reason I still use red is because it is sure to be seen. That is why it is used for warnings in the first place---it stands out and is sure to not be overlooked.  But I don't have strong feelings about it.  Maybe informative mod notes can be a softer color but chiding or warning ones could still be red (like for bullying or trolling etc.).

[milo]

Perfectly fair and I, for one, am not that committed to changing, just thought I would throw it out there. I don't mind giving feedback, I have probably given more feedback than anyone in the history of the site, it is something I enjoy and I intend to continue as long as other factors in my life allow

[wasellajam]

Quix- So appreciate all the time you spent on your explanation. I have total confidence that any changes you all decide to make will be in hopes of keeping the site running as intentioned. You also seem to have a firm handle on how to keep from complicating your jobs here any further. Not that you need to give a hoot about my opinion, just acknowledging the great job you're already doing, honestly can't imagine being in the spot you find yourselves in. But you've been doing it a long while, much appreciated. - Marcella

[milo]

Currently at work in a big meeting discussing individual performance metrics- getting pretty heated in here. I am thinking of it as a metaphor for holding people accountable for giving feedback

[gruff]

If some perspective from a new member is useful: I understand the emphasis on critique and participation, it's essential - vanity fair is no good for the reader or potential poet. Your promotion of that is why I joined. However, insisting those that know no better - as once I'm sure was the case for you all - should know better, and then using that as critique to justify why the site might not be working, is not the means to encouraging new people to better poetry; if that is what you want?

I had some critique on my first post, for which I'm very grateful (thank you) and it will help me develop the piece - but so far, I've seen little in the forums that'd encourage those new to poetry to think it can be the joy it can be - where is the room for: hello, I know this probably isn't great, but I have something to say - how do I start to do that like the poems I read?

I'm sure the burden on moderators is tough, so I don't mean to belittle that, but if there is anyone out there that wants the forum to thrive again: I might suggest trying to focus on enjoying poetry and language for sake of . .enjoying poetry and language - mods and all. Then building up to workshops and improvements again from there.

[milo]

If some perspective from a new member is useful: I understand the emphasis on critique and participation, it's essential - vanity fair is no good for the reader or potential poet. Your promotion of that is why I joined. However, insisting those that know no better - as once I'm sure was the case for you all - should know better, and then using that as critique to justify why the site might not be working, is not the means to encouraging new people to better poetry; if that is what you want?

I had some critique on my first post, for which I'm very grateful (thank you) and it will help me develop the piece - but so far, I've seen little in the forums that'd encourage those new to poetry to think it can be the joy it can be - where is the room for: hello, I know this probably isn't great, but I have something to say - how do I start to do that like the poems I read?

I'm sure the burden on moderators is tough, so I don't mean to belittle that, but if there is anyone out there that wants the forum to thrive again: I might suggest trying to focus on enjoying poetry and language for sake of . .enjoying poetry and language - mods and all. Then building up to workshops and improvements again from there.

I actually do love this idea.  We had, for a bit, a newbie area where it was more open to this exact concept but nobody wanted to be a newbie so nobody posted in it.

Of course anyone can post as they will in the "fun" forum or in the "Miscellaneous" forum where they aren't necessarily looking for critique but to share the joy of poetry.

I am not sure if I am reading you right though, is this what you are looking for?

Thanks for comments, I love to hear what the newbies have to say

---

also, if you were so inclined, post them right here!!!  I will be sure to offer affirmation

---

Every day  I watch the "who's online" stripe
at the bottom of the page
and I see a new member so I check

to see what they are up to -
they are checking out the "No Permissions Page"
they continue examining it as if

exploring
finding the new nook in
the "No Permissions Page"

Like a child finding that small
clearing in a copse of trees
where the sunlight angles in

that everyone else has forgotten
much like skinned knees
and birthday cake

they never make it past
the "No Permissions Page"
to where I am waiting for them

[Quixilated]

It's bots right now. There are currently 25 accounts "awaiting activation" because they are bots who can't make all the way through.

[milo]

It's bots right now. There are currently 25 accounts "awaiting activation" because they are bots who can't make all the way through.

Yah maybe

Or maybe there is something on that page that we just don’t know about

Sigh

---

Robertpees, Terrencestork - cmon guys! I am rooting for you

[gruff]

My Dear deluded milo, your "No Permissions Page" is of no interest to me; let's keep it that way. Goodnight.

[milo]

My Dear deluded milo, your "No Permissions Page" is of no interest to me; let's keep it that way. Goodnight.

Goodnight gruff

Let’s do it again tomorrow

---

the old guard are grazing
in the "Main Index"
like a dozen spotted cows

in a well worn pasture but
that is where the sweet sweet
clover is found

in the "Main Index" - it is not
to be consumed in any way
but gazed upon with fat

cow eyes. This is life in the Pen
of the "Main Index" - it is comfortable
and nothing startles you

nothing like the shock of
the "No Permissions Page"
- but there was a time -

they vaguely remember
like rustling straw in a corn maze
that they navigated through

the "No Permissions Page"
to the safety
of the "Main Index"

[milo]

Good morning servants of the pen!!

Had another odd dream last night. I got a new job but I wasn't sure about it so, of course I didn't quit my old job yet. I realized while driving to the new job this would be problematic as there would be no way to work both due to the hours. In addition, I don't currently have the type of job where you just abandon it to the abyss, but whatever, I decided to show up for my first day anyway to see what it was about. Well, it was rather odd, there was a collection of us and in the beginning we were all just sort of chatting and there were snacks provided which neither of these is that odd but - it carried on longer than I would have thought. We proceeded to do event after event of non work type activities. (We watched a show, had some lunch, some other stuff I can't quite remember) It began to dawn on me that this wasn't an actual job at all but a front for some type of government program.

Very strange

---

You know, many years ago, I developed a bot name generating algorithm that was quite popular and it worked like this:

It had a dictionary of common 1 syllable words
It selected 2 to make a compound word
it checked that word against a dictionary to be sure it didn't exist
it added a 2 digit number at the end

so like BarnFox22
CampGlove51

etc.

Now when I see these user accounts, it looks like they are using a common name and then a one syllable word like

Robertpees
JamesPen

whatever, it makes them very easy to spot sadly

[wasellajam]

oops, can't figure out how to delete

[milo]

oops, can't figure out how to delete

wait, why are you trying to delete?

I thought that was a helpful and thoughtful response.

Also, remember we disabled the delete in threads with response after Trueenigma went on his delete rampage

[wasellajam]

If some perspective from a new member is useful: I understand the emphasis on critique and participation, it's essential - vanity fair is no good for the reader or potential poet. Your promotion of that is why I joined. However, insisting those that know no better - as once I'm sure was the case for you all - should know better, and then using that as critique to justify why the site might not be working, is not the means to encouraging new people to better poetry; if that is what you want?

I had some critique on my first post, for which I'm very grateful (thank you) and it will help me develop the piece - but so far, I've seen little in the forums that'd encourage those new to poetry to think it can be the joy it can be - where is the room for: hello, I know this probably isn't great, but I have something to say - how do I start to do that like the poems I read?

I'm sure the burden on moderators is tough, so I don't mean to belittle that, but if there is anyone out there that wants the forum to thrive again: I might suggest trying to focus on enjoying poetry and language for sake of . .enjoying poetry and language - mods and all. Then building up to workshops and improvements again from there.

Hi. I've been here under a week and have been reading the site to do just that, enjoy excellent poetry. I've read some of spotlighting the hogs, poetry discussion, the practice threads, milo's forum which has the NaPM threads where people have a day to write a new poem, many interesting and inspiring poems there. I also read the longer workshop shops threads because posters examine language usage and impact so thoroughly. It's fun to write poems but not require to enjoy the site, you just have to explore.

---

oops, can't figure out how to delete

wait, why are you trying to delete?

I thought that was a helpful and thoughtful response.

Also, remember we disabled the delete in threads with response after Trueenigma went on his delete rampage

Because I responded to the wrong thread, forgot to preview.

[milo]

Lol - Oops 

[Quixilated]

If you write "mods please delete" in the post and/or pm one of us, we can help sweep up.  Alternatively, in that scenario, we could move the post to the correct thread if that's easier for you. Occasionally we receive requests for thread/post assistance via the report button, which is also an option. However, the report alert bar is broken, and we receive so few reports that it is difficult to remember to check it.  The quickest way would probably be pm, because I would get an email alert on my phone.  (Explaining for the benefit of new members since the topic came up). 

Also, good morning to all.  

[wasellajam]

If you write "mods please delete" in the post and/or pm one of us, we can help sweep up.  Alternatively, in that scenario, we could move the post to the correct thread if that's easier for you. Occasionally we receive requests for thread/post assistance via the report button, which is also an option. However, the report alert bar is broken, and we receive so few reports that it is difficult to remember to check it.  The quickest way would probably be pm, because I would get an email alert on my phone.  (Explaining for the benefit of new members since the topic came up). 

Also, good morning to all.  

My solution as applied to myself: Don't be such an airhead and pay attention to what you're doing.

Good morning, Quix

[milo]

It is only January and I am starting to think about my garden. Come February it will be time to germinate some seeds or commit to buying those over priced starter plants in March from Lowes

---

Not sure who around here is familiar with reddit (not me obviously) but in doing research recently, I ran into r/OCPoetry which is a reddit for posting original works of poetry and offering feedback. To post an original work, a member needs to include links to 2 pieces of recent feedback they left. It is probably the equivalent of our basic with a little mild thrown in. There is a more advanced forum r/ThePoetryWorkshop that is invite only and (I guess) you access by being an advanced contributor to this.

Guess approximately how many NEW poems are posted daily?

[wasellajam]

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It is only January and I am starting to think about my garden. Come February it will be time to germinate some seeds or commit to buying those over priced starter plants in March from Lowes

---

Not sure who around here is familiar with reddit (not me obviously) but in doing research recently, I ran into r/OCPoetry which is a reddit for posting original works of poetry and offering feedback.  To post an original work, a member needs to include links to 2 pieces of recent feedback they left.  It is probably the equivalent of our basic with a little mild thrown in.  There is a more advanced forum r/ThePoetryWorkshop that is invite only and (I guess) you access by being an advanced contributor to this.

Guess approximately how many NEW poems are posted daily?

Hmmm, really hard to guess. reddit is such a big site and without the feedback requirements I might guess over 100. With the requirements I guess 3. When I was active here and getting so much help and positive support I wanted to get some feedback from people who didn’t know me. I joined one of the large, active poetry sites. Many poems were posted daily. Found the workshop which turned out to have maybe 6 active posters and maybe 3 new poems weekly. I’m guessing reddit is the same.