The Great British Novel

[RiverNotch]

Whitman and Dickinson created their own poetic, which stamps them as individuals not as Americans.

Possibly Dickinson, but I'd say Whitman wouldn't have been anyone but if he weren't American, considering how America [all caps] permeates the entire body of his work. 

I dunno why I'm sorta defending America on this, especially since they ravage us by the beginning of last century. Maybe it's because I feel like the sense of condescension over here is in large part because America's so young compared to the great western nations, which by extension would just flat-out exclude us developing nations -- at least Harold Bloom invited in the Latin Americans. Or maybe it's just because I love American culture that much, with their blue jeans and pop music.

But as for the topic at hand, I can't really give a proper answer -- I didn't even know "the great American novel" was meant to be anything more than some sort of cultural propaganda. Then again, Austen, Dostoevsky, *Rizal*, Fitzgerald -- it's all Hiligaynon to me.

[shemthepenman]

Whitman and Dickinson created their own poetic, which stamps them as individuals not as Americans.

Possibly Dickinson, but I'd say Whitman wouldn't have been anyone but if he weren't American, considering how America [all caps] permeates the entire body of his work. 

I dunno why I'm sorta defending America on this, especially since they ravage us by the beginning of last century. Maybe it's because I feel like the sense of condescension over here is in large part because America's so young compared to the great western nations, which by extension would just flat-out exclude us developing nations -- at least Harold Bloom invited in the Latin Americans. Or maybe it's just because I love American culture that much, with their blue jeans and pop music.

But as for the topic at hand, I can't really give a proper answer -- I didn't even know "the great American novel" was meant to be anything more than some sort of cultural propaganda. Then again, Austen, Dostoevsky, *Rizal*, Fitzgerald -- it's all Hiligaynon to me.

Cinema is probably the only great american art form. if it wasn’t for american cinema’s propaganda, no one would take america even remotely seriously. we all think americans are dumb, but really the rest of the world are fucking idiots for thinking the avengers are actually representative of american power. 

also, yes, i concede that the idea of The Great American Novel has all sorts of problems. but it exists. there is no two ways about it. america has said “there is a potential novel that captures the very essence of america”. why hasn’t britain said the same? and assuming it’s already been done (a few times), what is it?

[busker]

Dickinson (did you mean Dickens) isn’t read by anyone I know. I mean, he’s taught in schools and all but that’s about it. I think the greatest American writer today is Suzan Mazur. Because of content, not form. She’s written an expose of the Evolution Industry that every thinking person should read. Not that it’ll be taught in liberal schools, of course.

[RiverNotch]

Dickinson (did you mean Dickens) isn’t read by anyone I know. I mean, he’s taught in schools and all but that’s about it. I think the greatest American writer today is Suzan Mazur. Because of content, not form. She’s written an expose of the Evolution Industry that every thinking person should read. Not that it’ll be taught in liberal schools, of course.

I wasn't talking about novels, even if that's what the discussion's all about -- I was more talking about how one of the participants was being particularly dismissive about American culture as a whole, which I defend in part because I am enthralled by it, in part because his dismissal in essence felt like an avenue for the sort of imperialism I despise. So no, I did not mean Dickens: I meant the great Emily Dickinson. Also, "the Evolution Industry"? "liberal schools"? That sounds like the sort of conspiratorial talk I would normally scoff at, especially since biology's the field I'm getting into...

[rowens]

I've already given my answer to the American novels that I relate to the most and the British one. I don't know what it's like to be British. And American culture tends to be dismissive of anything they can't use to advertise a product. They use Whitman for that now. Used to be: Walt Whitman, an American, a kosmos. That is and always has been sneered at by Americans, except for the ones who are inspired by getting sneered at. All original American art was taken to Europe to be refined then brought back to America to be sold. Except for the blues, which has been refined but has never surpassed its origins. And I don't know what it's like to be British. I suppose, like America, it involves a lot of internet use and drugs.

[shemthepenman]

I've already given my answer to the American novels that I relate to the most and the British one. I don't know what it's like to be British. And American culture tends to be dismissive of anything they can't use to advertise a product. They use Whitman for that now. Used to be: Walt Whitman, an American, a kosmos. That is and always has been sneered at by Americans, except for the ones who are inspired by getting sneered at. All original American art was taken to Europe to be refined then brought back to America to be sold. Except for the blues, which has been refined but has never surpassed its origins. And I don't know what it's like to be British. I suppose, like America, it involves a lot of internet use and drugs.

indeed and your answer is appreciated. 

and not knowing what it’s like to be british or american or russian etc. is precisely why it’s “important” to have the national epic (or The Great American Novel), i assume. 
Moby-dick was considered to be the great american novel of its time. and as neither of us know what it was like to be an american living in the 1800s, it’s lucky we have a book which, so it’s said, opens up a window to that. 
i still can’t put my finger on exactly why it’s such a big deal in american litarary culture (and not so much across the rest of the world) to aspire to write such a book. maybe it’s because national socialism’s ghost still lingers across europe like a bad smell, and to wrap a novel in the union jack feels a bit too dangerous. even now. 
in america, on the other hand, the second world war was something that happened, like almost everything else, on the silver screen. that beautiful wall of soft light that separates you from the cold hard realities of existence... oh dear, i’ve gone full cliché. how dreary.

well, who knows. 

ps. just to clear up some apparent confusion concerning exactly what the concept of The Great American Novel actually is, i found this neat little  summery on wikipedia of all places:

“The Great American Novel is the concept of a novel that perfectly represents the spirit of the age in the United States at the time of its publication.”

[rowens]

I don't know. I don't agree with that definition, and it seems a pointless idea to me. Moby-Dick may have used the sea as a symbol for American life. And the narrator seemed a man without a country. And the book was thought of as a flop, a critical failure in the 1800s. Maybe that's what America is all about.

---

I don't see the phrase used much anymore. Maybe the concept has been changed by people who think it's already been accomplished. From what I've read from the writers themselves, the idea was a motivating challenge rather than anything else. Based on an idea of someone like Tolstoy rather than any historical fact. As facts are mere deerticks attached to a truth, writers don't trouble so much with them, and create their own worlds. I think Kafka's American novel is a great american novel. Though certainly not the Great American Novel. But maybe close.

[shemthepenman]

I don't know. I don't agree with that definition, and it seems a pointless idea to me. Moby-Dick may have used the sea as a symbol for American life. And the narrator seemed a man without a country. And the book was thought of as a flop, a critical failure in the 1800s. Maybe that's what America is all about.

yeah, well i haven’t got time to start redefining words and concepts. i’m just working with the definition we’ve got. and that postscript definition wasn’t for you in particular. just some of the responses here (and elsewhere) seem to be based a miscomprehension of what the phrase stands for. is all. 

the publication and reception history of moby-dick is very interesting. apparently, the british reviewed, what was essentially, a different book—it was heavily edited and missing the epilogue. and because the british critics were superior (being scholars and professionals) to the american critics (essentially slack jawed hillbillies—little has changed), the american critics basically just reiterated the british consensus. which is a shame because it’s a marvelous book.

but that’s neither here nor there. i wonder, why do you think the project pointless? isn’t there something to it? capturing a little bit of the general mood of a nation? i don’t know. maybe you’re right.  as i said, i’ve never thought about it before. and after this i won’t ever want to think about it again.

[rowens]

It seems to me the British still get something out of their poets. While in America, a successful novel is a sign of a good career path, and a lot can be made from the movie rights. That's a respectful position in life. The American poet, though, is always a little suspicious. We have to make sure they have a respectable job as a professor or insurance salesman before we'll buy any books. Even somebody like Bukowski made it in Europe before here.

[Lizzie]

i still can’t put my finger on exactly why it’s such a big deal in american litarary culture (and not so much across the rest of the world) to aspire to write such a book. maybe it’s because national socialism’s ghost still lingers across europe like a bad smell, and to wrap a novel in the union jack feels a bit too dangerous. even now. 

We're a young country. That's how identity is formed, through self-reflection. It's a very natural part of growing up.



“The Great American Novel is the concept of a novel that perfectly represents the spirit of the age in the United States at the time of its publication.”

Then Anna Karenina is The Great Russian Novel. It's 800+ pages of "this is what it means to be Russian." And it's brilliant.

[shemthepenman]

I don't see the phrase used much anymore. Maybe the concept has been changed by people who think it's already been accomplished. From what I've read from the writers themselves, the idea was a motivating challenge rather than anything else. Based on an idea of someone like Tolstoy rather than any historical fact. As facts are mere deerticks attached to a truth, writers don't trouble so much with them, and create their own worlds. I think Kafka's American novel is a great american novel. Though certainly not the Great American Novel. But maybe close.

it’s funny you should say about writers calling it a motivating challenge. because i was just about to put that i think the concept gives a nice focus to young writers in america. 
in britain we’ve got a sedimentary class system that basically puts a limit on how much ambition one is allowed to carry about.

[rowens]

Every American would like to write the Great American Novel. These days it would actually be easier to write the Great Global Novel.

---

The Russians knew how to keep their serfs in check while the novel-writing was going on. Then Tolstoy freed his, which added to his audience. But we know what happened next.

[shemthepenman]

i still can’t put my finger on exactly why it’s such a big deal in american litarary culture (and not so much across the rest of the world) to aspire to write such a book. maybe it’s because national socialism’s ghost still lingers across europe like a bad smell, and to wrap a novel in the union jack feels a bit too dangerous. even now. 

We're a young country. That's how identity is formed, through self-reflection. It's a very natural part of growing up.



“The Great American Novel is the concept of a novel that perfectly represents the spirit of the age in the United States at the time of its publication.”

Then Anna Karenina is The Great Russian Novel. It's 800+ pages of "this is what it means to be Russian." And it's brilliant.

yes, the international counterpart of the great american novel is the national epic. every country has at least one. war and peace is also considered a russian national epic. all of shakespeare’s henry plays are british national epics. and so on and so forth.

[Leanne]

I think of it as a bit like "being cool". Every school has the "cool kids" who look, dress and act in predictable, prescribed ways. They are cool because consensus says that's what cool is.

For the most part, those cool kids peak in high school, when they're living the stereotype that was created for them before they were born. The Great American Novel might well have been written last week, but we won't know it until enough university professors have read it, applied the filter of hindsight, and determined that it did in fact capture the zeitgeist. Then the New York Times will feel confident that it can proclaim it to be excellent, and all the critics will pick it over until there's nothing left to do but read it to see what everyone's talking about and compare your reading experience with what you were told to feel.

[milo]

You

although i agree with rowens that americans are pretty rubbish when it comes to art (basquiat and pollock and t.s. eliot being notable exceptions)* i can’t see how there is no such thing as The Great American Novel. it’s a bit like saying there’s no such thing as a romance novel. i suppose a single definitive “Great American Novel” cannot possibly exist outside abstraction, given the criteria for writing one includes that it be time period specific; but attempts have most certainly been made, and quite a few books have been nominated. Moby Dick being one of them.
so, and as you yanks will insist on making this all about you—that may very well go some way to answering the following questions—why does this concept exist for american and not british novelists? why do american writers hanker after writing The Great American Novel, at all? why don’t british writers or australian writers or french writers or german writers (serious german writers) or russian writers harbor similar desires?
but this is by the by, because i’m  assuming, regardless of aspirations and consciously demarcated goals, there surely are novels equivalent to The Great American Novel, for all of those other places. i just wondered what they were. if there were such an appellation, what would be The Great British Novel? Brighton Rock? Trainspotting? Pride and Prejudice? something more contemporary that i’ve never heard of?


*i know this isn’t exactly what you said, Rowens, but it’s what i chose to hear.

The problem with the great British novel is that Conrad wrote it and he wasn’t British thereby it became unacceptable. The problem is with the Brits.

[Leanne]

Lord Jim caused Brexit

[milo]

Lord Jim caused Brexit

This is truer than your flippancy gives credit, madam

[QDeathstar]

We could give you The Sun Also Rises..... it seems like a proper british novel, even if it's not. Hey, at least you got shakespeare, amirite?

[busker]

I can bet that none of you have read War and Peace. You will claim otherwise, but the Lord knows the truth. The greatest novel of all time was written thousand of years ago. It’s not the Illiad, it’s not The Great Gatsby, it’s not even Kim Kardashian’s unauthorised autobiography. Hint: it’s not kind on the “gay community”, as liberals like to call it.

[CRNDLSM]

I can bet that none of you have read War and Peace. You will claim otherwise, but the Lord knows the truth. The greatest novel of all time was written thousand of years ago. It’s not the Illiad, it’s not The Great Gatsby, it’s not even Kim Kardashian’s unauthorised autobiography. Hint: it’s not kind on the “gay community”, as liberals like to call it.

What's so difficult about war and peace?  3000 pages to say history is bunk

My favorite Russian novel is Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky. Didn' read Crime and Punishment cause I read Tell Tale Heart.  Seemed the same