What gets you through the tunnel and the nights
Is much the same: it answers midnight dread -
Of feared abandonment and cave-in plights -
With claims of love or safety, read or said.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Religion, romance, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
We tunnel not with instinct, but belief;
Our overburdened lives want stress relief.
{Previous versions }
Edit2
What gets you through the tunnel and the nights
Is much the same: it answers midnight dread -
Of feared abandonment and cave-in plights -
With claims of love or safety, read or said.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Religion, romance, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like steel, wants strain relief.
Edit1
What gets you through the tunnel and the night
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Revealed religion, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
Original version
What gets you through the tunnel and the night
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You trust the pit-props shoring up your mind
Likewise, religion, ideology,
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
Faith in something that is proven using the scientific method cannot be compared to faith as it is used in religion. This seems a faulty (pun intended) syllogism, but then again I probably need to go to bed.
dale
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
(02-15-2016, 11:29 AM)Erthona Wrote: Faith in something that is proven using the scientific method cannot be compared to faith as it is used in religion. This seems a faulty (pun intended) syllogism, but then again I probably need to go to bed.
dale
And yet I have compared them. Faith in religion (that what PBUH said to Abu Bakr is what PBUH was indeed ordered to Recite, or that what the Muse sang to Homer was truly how things stood on Olympus) is certainly not identical with faith in science (that what has been replicably observed today will continue to be replicably observable tomorrow), but neither kind of proposition is actually testable. A leap of faith is demanded and consistent, apparently confirming reports by others do give confidence. Science works; so did burnt offerings, though a bit less reliably.
What gets you through the tunnel and the night
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You trust the pit-props shoring up your mind
Likewise, religion, ideology,
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
I agree with dale. Faith in science is different from faith in religion, because science doesn't actually say what is true or not -- sure, to play around with it, you have to accept the idea that hey, there's an objective truth and poop, but that acceptance only works within science -- you don't have to believe to your core that metaphysical reality equals the physical reality of science. Religion, meanwhile, automatically jumps at the assumption that God is real, and works its way from there -- thus, it provides an answer, without any reference points, at least the sort of religion that digs deep in the Western way. ie, Religion says that something is, and that "is-ness" is beyond what anything the "I" can perceive, or even think about -- science, meanwhile, tells us to assume that what the "I" perceives and logically proves as the "is-ness" is the "is-ness" that is, but only for the moment in which it is to be, unless one considers science to be that "is-ness" beyond the "I", which is of course a religion of itself.
Of course, commenting on the poem....it depends too much on the logic behind the comparison, so I can't really say it's even worth keeping. It might be fair enough for apologetics, but frankly, I have a bad opinion of that, at least in its philosophical form -- it can be real fun to read how this God is this, that God is not this, etc. This isn't exactly a poem that tries to exist out of its question -- it's not even a metaphor, for me, saying "science is religion" and playing it like that (maybe because the key elements of its conceit are never really developed -- what is "night" in the context of religion, for one? is it despair? because as any God-believing person since the dawn of time knows, faith is its own form of despair), it's just a proof. Maybe if you made the whole science and geology bit less metaphysical, or if you made the elaboration on religion more playful....
I have to note that I'm a firm believer in God's existence, and if modern society would allow it, for all of my things, I'd blatantly disregard science for all things religious, but again, because God is a God that is, and if He is then He is beyond me, trying to prove Him, even with His holy scripture (which, as most peeps should know, would just lead back to trying to prove Him) would be as sensible as saying "I do not exist" -- if I don't exist, then how come I said "I"?
However, I believe faith in science is the same as faith in religion. We will likey need to take this somewhere else like pigs arse, knowing I am likely stirring Erthona up, but it still relates to the poem so far.
Conclusions based on the scientific method are inherently inductive, meaning you have to believe that given the same circumstances, the same results generally follow. This was noted most clearly by Hume to be circular reasoning; ie, the reason we expect scientifically proven things to produce the same results is because they keep producing the same results, therefore they will produce the same results in the future.
So, believing science or religion is still based on belief, as proof is inductive and if you believe it is predictive, it's a circular argument.
(02-16-2016, 10:09 AM)aschueler Wrote: I know I am stepping in it.
However, I believe faith in science is the same as faith in religion. We will likey need to take this somewhere else like pigs arse, knowing I am likely stirring Erthona up, but it still relates to the poem so far.
Conclusions based on the scientific method are inherently inductive, meaning you have to believe that given the same circumstances, the same results generally follow. This was noted most clearly by Hume to be circular reasoning; ie, the reason we expect scientifically proven things to produce the same results is because they keep producing the same results, therefore they will produce the same results in the future.
So, believing science or religion is still based on belief, as proof is inductive and if you believe it is predictive, it's a circular argument.
Thanks to all the commenters (the above makes my argument regarding the assertion that underlies science in clearer prose). My take-away is that the premise of the poem was clearly understood (if disagreed-with by a majority), so in that, at least, it's a decent poem. If possible, please restrict this thread to critique of the poem's craft (if any) and possible improvements; as suggested, I'll start a thread in the PA to sling ribald insults philosophize about the issues raised.
"You trust the pit-props shoring up your mind
Likewise, religion, ideology,
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology."
As a whole piece, I like it's construction and the subject matter. That is not to say whether I disagree with it or not. The four lines I have quoted above are what make this piece difficult, however. The fact that is a sonnet is clear. And sonnets have rules, and this fits the rules much better than many of the pieces I see. But lines 9, 10, and 12 all have small inconsistencies. The syllable count is all fine, but that is not where meter is entirely measured. 'Pit-props,' being hyphenated, is naturally spondaic, and I can't seem to "destress" the word 'props' as I say it. 'Likewise,' isn't exactly an iamb in my dialect, but maybe it's different in yours. It's forgivable. But 'ideology' does not fit at all. It's completely unnatural to every dialect of English I've heard to stress that final syllable. The same goes for geology, and most words that end in the letter Y, as far as I know. Iambic pentameter is so common in English poetry because it is so natural to the English language.
[small portion deleted after reading above comment]
I suggest tweaks to those three lines, and anything else that has to be tweaked to follow along with such changes.
(also, this is my first time commenting in mild critique, so I'm not sure if this is too much or too little)
If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.
"Or, if a poet writes a poem, then immediately commits suicide (as any decent poet should)..." -- Erthona
Useless Blueprint, you did a fine job. Let's all try to follow that lead and remember that we're here to help the OP make the best poem possible. Please crit the poem along with your comments. Thanks, ella
billy wrote:welcome to the site. make it your own, wear it like a well loved slipper and wear it out. ella pleads:please click forum titles for posting guidelines, important threads. New poet? Try Poetic DevicesandWard's Tips
What gets you through the tunnel and the night
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Revealed religion, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
Thanks for the the very fine critique - right to the nitty-gritty of meter. (And thanks/mea culpa to the moderator - I'm as guilty as the others, for responding in kind.)
The usual excuse/rationalization/reason for off-meter is "substitution," that is, a trochee for an iamb (or the like) when the change-up in emphasis supports the thrust of the poem. The third quatrain has no such excuse - I always knew "Likewise" was wrong, just had to have someone point it out. In edit1 (above) I've altered two lines to slot "likewise" into a metrically correct location and suppress the offending "pit-props." Hate to lose "shoring up," but so it goes; "Revealed" is a bit unnecessary, but the desirable "Romance" there would also be off-meter.
On the other hand, I respectfully disagree on "ideology" and "geology," not because the latter is a whiz-bang that also appears in the title, but because I really do pronounce them as /././ and ././ - though the last syllable is indeed less accented than the first/second respectively. So for the time being they stand as is, though if others find them objectionable I'm willing to reconsider - the title can, after all, stand on its own if necessary.
(02-16-2016, 01:14 PM)UselessBlueprint Wrote: "You trust the pit-props shoring up your mind
Likewise, religion, ideology,
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology."
As a whole piece, I like it's construction and the subject matter. That is not to say whether I disagree with it or not. The four lines I have quoted above are what make this piece difficult, however. The fact that is a sonnet is clear. And sonnets have rules, and this fits the rules much better than many of the pieces I see. But lines 9, 10, and 12 all have small inconsistencies. The syllable count is all fine, but that is not where meter is entirely measured. 'Pit-props,' being hyphenated, is naturally spondaic, and I can't seem to "destress" the word 'props' as I say it. 'Likewise,' isn't exactly an iamb in my dialect, but maybe it's different in yours. It's forgivable. But 'ideology' does not fit at all. It's completely unnatural to every dialect of English I've heard to stress that final syllable. The same goes for geology, and most words that end in the letter Y, as far as I know. Iambic pentameter is so common in English poetry because it is so natural to the English language.
[small portion deleted after reading above comment]
I suggest tweaks to those three lines, and anything else that has to be tweaked to follow along with such changes.
(also, this is my first time commenting in mild critique, so I'm not sure if this is too much or too little)
What gets you through the tunnel and the night--I appreciate that you attempted to avoid the cliche of dark tunnel. Though I'm not sure "and the night" is the right way to get there when I take your good title into consideration. I think you probably want to simply expand on the tunnel and strip the word night from line one. The focus seems more on geology as the governing metaphor and the repetition of night waters it down some for me. Not sure this is a good substitution but maybe: "What gets you through the tunnel without light"
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,--The syntax ending on "of" makes this seem slightly forced for the rhyme. It's not horrible but it does draw attention to itself.
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height--The image from the simile seems to fit very well with the abstract concept you lay out. My only concern with it is that you start with a tunnel and you lead to a bit of confusion with your metaphor in the next line (in my opinion).
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love.--The only issue I have here is I'm moving from acrophobia to claustrophobia. It would seem that the latter is the better choice given the tunnel image in line 1.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Revealed religion, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find--I noticed I was moving off of mild to more of a line by line. Let me scale it back to the bigger things that stand out. I wonder if the "so many souls" actually gives the individual trust or comfort in the time of stress. I don't think people tend to draw comfort from an assumed comfort given to others. Just an observation.
Safe passage through each night’s geology.--It sells your title and its a good line.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
I think I may have overdone it a bit for this forum. I hope the comments are helpful.
hi duke, as an admirer of your poetry i have to say;
for me the poem doesn't work so well as a sonnet, there's no real pay off
the couplet also feels a bit contrived and somewhat tainted. to engineer happens in many species. birds, insects primates to name a few. to use it as a human trait is unscientific. the latter part f the couplet implies stone has feeling. do they?
What gets you through the tunnel and the night without knowing anything as of yet, i do like the separation twixt the two
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height i keeps saying heights when i read it
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love. this and the next line do little to keep me reading, it's like ideas are being postulated that i can't accept, there's not enough substance to make me see feel what's being said has relevance
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind - who is the you?
Revealed religion, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
Original version
What gets you through the tunnel and the night
Is much the same: there’s dread it frees you of,
Fear of abandonment, like rocky height
Above, weighs down, no breath, no light, no love.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You trust the pit-props shoring up your mind
Likewise, religion, ideology,
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like stone, wants strain relief.
To offer a separate perspective for you (duke) to dwell on, I think that a sonnet is a perfectly fair form, though perhaps not the absolute best. With the subject of engineering, having a form with rigid rules, such as a sonnet, is a completely fair choice. However, being that it seems to be a Shakespearean sonnet, I find the couplet to be rather stale. It's a conclusion, but not a particularly noteworthy conclusion in my opinion.
If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.
"Or, if a poet writes a poem, then immediately commits suicide (as any decent poet should)..." -- Erthona
What gets you through the tunnel and the nights
Is much the same: it answers midnight dread -
Of feared abandonment and cave-in plights -
With claims of love or safety, read or said.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Religion, romance, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
To engineer is human; so’s belief:
The stress of life, like steel, wants strain relief.
Many thanks to the two distinguished critics. I've tried to implement your criticisms in the above edit. (@aschueler and @UselessBlueprint, gimme some time to puzzle out a better couplet: the pre-original version was much, much worse!)
@Todd - Not overdone at all, quite welcome, in fact. I've made many changes to the first quatrain, trying to clarify the idea (though night remains as a shorthand for insecure night thoughts). The heights are gone. I defend "so many souls" given the prevalence of religion, ideology, and romance - few, if any, make up their own... particularly at the level of religion. I do appreciate the read and the improvements.
@billy - If I've lost @billy at line 4, the rest of the audience is already across the street having a beer. Edit2 (above) addresses several of your concerns, though I'm still working on a couplet with more punch. To Engineer is Human is also the title of Petroski's delightful book of engineering cock-ups, and I really doubt that any non-human animal does it the way we do. Thanks for the comments, will try to do better!
To those who wanted a less insipid couplet, here's one that sticks closer to the central metaphor. {And please excuse the bump!}
Edit3
What gets you through the tunnel and the nights
Is much the same: it answers midnight dread -
Of feared abandonment and cave-in plights -
With claims of love or safety, read or said.
Hope’s not enough: you must own confidence,
Belief in science, that this tunnel’s roof
Is like each other’s, bored through rock as dense,
That’s crushed no one – a tested, public proof.
You likewise trust the pillars of your mind -
Religion, romance, ideology -
Because they’ve helped so many souls to find
Safe passage through each night’s geology.
We tunnel not with instinct, but belief;
Our overburdened lives want stress relief.
It's vaguely better, but I have trouble loving the couplet. The rest is dandy, esp enjoy the "...a tested, public proof. // You likewise trust the pillars of your mind - // Relgion, romance, ideology..."
Non-practicing atheist
