Poetic Persona

[NobodyNothing]

I think when poetry first came quite impressionably to my attention, I became enamored by the idea of poetic persona.  Not consciously at first, but later became more consciously to the realization of that idea.  As an example, I'll start with the obvious, Walt Whitman.  Whitman created a poetic persona for himself that became almost indistinguishable from his poetry.  There was walt whitman the "actual" person (whomever that may have been), and WALT WHITMAN the poetic persona behind all his poetry, most notably in the original edition of "Leaves Of Grass".  

Whitman remains the greatest and most foreboding of all American poets for the poetic persona that he created/affected in his poetry.  One might say that Whitman's poetic persona was the very essential thing that towers over all other American poets to this day.  He's almost impossible to escape in this way, the shadow of his poetic persona cast so far and wide, almost ubiquitously pervasive in its presence.  

I often wondered to myself if Whitman could ever be exceeded in this way?  We all have our poetic personas, that which "distinguishes" ourselves from others, talent and quality issues aside.  Yeats certainly had quite the poetic persona.  Rilke did as well.  There might be those who might argue that the greatest of poets (perhaps Shakespeare) are great for the very reason of an "absence" of persona (Shakespeare has been called by the greatest of literary critics the artist who was "everyone and no one", almost perfectly omniscient).  

I was always fascinated by the idea of what poetic persona (imagined, of course) could possibly speak for and embody the soul of a people, a nation, a country, a world now?  Is there anything/anyone conceivable beyond Whitman in this way?

I don't know...just babbling.

But anyway, what is your poetic persona?  How would you describe the poetic personas of other poets you have admired and been influenced by?  

An exercise, I guess (or just a musing on the subject matter).

[Weeded]

Afrika Bambaataa
Known as the "Godfather of Hip-Hop," he was originally the leader of the Harlem gang, the Black Spades. Gangs were originally a unification of men who worked toward a common goal, ridding their streets of drug dealers in their turf. They quickly became the "law" in the areas where NYPD failed to protect and serve. He changed the entire direction of music (along with DJ Kool Herc and a few others), thus creating Hip-Hop. After a journey to Africa, He returned with a new ideology which eventually led to the Universal Zulu Nation movement, which helped spread hip-hop across the world. The purpose of the movement was to bring social and political awareness to the streets as well as the world during a time when gang violence was spiking rapidly.

Notorious B.I.G.
In reality he was a black man from the middle class but he came to represent the poverty stricken, racially segregated class of New York and brought unity in America's largest city and eventually America itself.

Tupac Amaru Shakur
Same story, lived life in between middle class and low class but became prominently held as the "Voice of the Black Man."

Eminem
The voice of a generation where social identity meant everything. He could be the first mainstream example of the integration of the white man into hip-hop

[milo]

Not sure I understand the question! Is this a "cult of personality " discussion?

[NobodyNothing]

Africa Bambaataa
Known as the "Godfather of Hip-Hop," he was originally the leader of the Harlem gang, the Black Spades. Gangs were originally a unification of men who worked toward a common goal, ridding their streets of drug dealers in their turf. They quickly became the "law" in the areas where NYPD failed to protect and serve. He changed the entire direction of music (along with DJ Kool Herc and a few others), thus creating Hip-Hop. After a journey to Africa, He returned with a new ideology which eventually led to the Universal Zulu Nation movement, which helped spread hip-hop across the world. The purpose of the movement was to bring social and political awareness to the streets as well as the world during a time when gang violence was spiking rapidly.

Notorious B.I.G.
In reality he was a black man from the middle class but he came to represent the poverty stricken, racially segregated class of New York and brought unity in America's largest city and eventually America itself.

Tupac Amaru Shakur
Same story, lived life in between middle class and low class but became prominently held as the "Voice of the Black Man."

Eminem
The voice of a generation where social identity meant everything. He could be the first mainstream example of the integration of the white man into hip-hop

Interesting persona capsules.

---

Not sure I understand the question! Is this a "cult of personality " discussion?

This doesn't *quite* express the "persona" thing, but George Orwell once said that almost every author he ever read brought to his mind the face and expression of the persona of the author to him.  If that makes any sense.

Whitman's poetic persona was that of the man who embodied everyone and/or everything (at least American).  

I CELEBRATE myself, and sing myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.

He was in his persona the ultimate "democrat", the everyman, or everyperson.  That's what he boldly aspired to be in his poetic persona from the opening stanza of the opening poem of Leaves Of Grass, the most famous and enduring of all American poems, or poetic works.

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Let me put it this way.  When I used to write poetry (or tried to, I don't anymore) I quite consciously entered into this "other" entity inside me, a different "me", master of the mazes, master of the soul (you know what I mean).  It was never "me" writing the poems I wrote, it was this "other me", this me that stood apart from me.  He knew everything, he was a god, a fallen god, I guess.  

It was my poetic self, my poetic persona. 

When I used to perform poetry, my friend/lover/partner would say to me (essentially) "who is that person, it's not you".

I don't know, something like that.

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It's kind of funny...Shakespeare "extinguished" himself and became everyone, whereas Whitman enlarged himself beyond compare and "subsumed" everyone.  

Fascinating.

[ellajam]

When I think in terms of even this site, people do create what might be called a poetic persona based on how they write, what they like and dislike and how they explain what works or doesn't for them. I could probably identify each work and post without the user name/avatar.

But does it matter? The person who makes us laugh is not necessarily happy, the one who makes us cry may be joyful through and through.

All is illusion anyway, are there more points for a bigger, more widespread illusion? Did I understand the question?

[rayheinrich]

Bukowski had one hell of a persona. He was a much more thoughtful, measured
man than the one we imagine writing his poems (if I'm to believe accounts of
his interviews, his letters).

Which is the problem of "persona" per se: It's the ultimate subjective.

Oliver Sacks -- famous neurologist, author of Awakenings --
said we had an identity for every important person/event/year/etc.
and that some of them varied significantly from the others. But
since we were usually one at a time, we believed there was just
one of us. Part of the nervousness, confusion that we experience in
new situations, meeting new people, even having two friends we know
separately come together with us for the first time, is the result
of not having a predefined identity and having to construct one
on-the-fly.

I know when I read poems I wrote many years ago, or notes about my life
from back them, I feel like I'm poking around in someone else's life.

So... my poetic persona is whoever whoever I am at the moment imagines
is doing the writing as well as the protagonist, whoever he's talking
to, and the person I imagine reading the damn thing.

What's funny is that I'm writing this in my pigpen identity to people
whose persona's I've pretty much fabricated from reading their words
on this screen.

Though, considering my next-door neighbors, you people are MUCH more real.

Hmm, does reading people's poetry give you a more accurate picture of the
person? Call me prejudiced, but I think it does.

Ray

[billy]

bucks persona was a drunk down to earth man. somehow i struggle to see his lifestyle as a person or a poet blamed on anything else but booze. he was obviously an intelligent man but come on guys, he didn't actually give a fuck about most things, or should i say he gave way too much fuck about everything. that he went through bouts of sobriety; i'm sure he did but i always saw and heard him as someone who didn't need a fabricated persona. i never liked him as a poet for a long time mainly because i'd never read or heard him. he was one of those arty farty poets to me, now i think of him as one of my favourite poets. i often listen to his recording and live gigs in bars and clubs, all i see and here is a man who knew how to love and feel pain in a more genuine was than most prissy poets. i suppose he did have a persona but i think others had much more contrived ones. ginsberger being one of them ...i heard him a few times and it sounded like he was still sucking Orlovsky's cock

[rayheinrich]

billy said: "I suppose he did have a persona but i think others had much more contrived ones."

And THAT's the difference between creativity and contrivance.
Buk's was so perfect, it fooled everyone. Later, as things went downhill, it even fooled him.
OR
What you read was the real Buk and the other was the persona.

This persona thing is amusing bullshit.

The actual contrivance is the "real person behind the persona".
That single/unique "real person" doesn't exist.

Each one of us is a composition of many selves all orchestrated by their individual experiences.
No one aspect of us is any more real than another.

[NobodyNothing]

Sometimes I just post about something that intrigues me, share a thought or two, and enjoy reading other posters thoughts on the subject, enrich my own thinking about it.

Thanks for the thoughts shared.

---

I thought once, wandering around Westminster Abbey, stopping at TS Eliot's spot there, "is TS Eliot the poet of humility?" (persona), "or is he the American poet who fancied himself having been hatched under a Duchess's ass?"

[rayheinrich]

Sometimes I just post about something that intrigues me, share a thought or two, and enjoy reading other posters thoughts on the subject, enrich my own thinking about it.

Thanks for the thoughts shared.

---

I thought once, wandering around Westminster Abbey, stopping at TS Eliot's spot there, "is TS Eliot the poet of humility?" (persona), "or is he the American poet who fancied himself having been hatched under a Duchess's ass?"

This subject turned out to be pretty interesting.
Post more, "Poetry Discussion" is always in need of topics.

"hatched under a Duchess's ass?"  

[Weeded]

Yes, this topic is pretty dope. A lot of good minds to analyze, as well as some observant readers with an idea of two of their own.

I looked up Bukowski, and wow. I'm gonna be stuck on him for a while I can already tell. One of the first things I read from him sounds like something said in an interview:

"I've never been lonely. I've been in a room -- I've felt suicidal. I've been depressed. I've felt awful -- awful beyond all -- but I never felt that one other person could enter that room and cure what was bothering me...or that any number of people could enter that room. In other words, loneliness is something I've never been bothered with because I've always had this terrible itch for solitude. It's being at a party, or at a stadium full of people cheering for something, that I might feel loneliness. I'll quote Ibsen, "The strongest men are the most alone." I've never thought, "Well, some beautiful blonde will come in here and give me a fuck-job, rub my balls, and I'll feel good." No, that won't help. You know the typical crowd, "Wow, it's Friday night, what are you going to do? Just sit there?" Well, yeah. Because there's nothing out there. It's stupidity. Stupid people mingling with stupid people. Let them stupidify themselves. I've never been bothered with the need to rush out into the night. I hid in bars, because I didn't want to hide in factories. That's all. Sorry for all the millions, but I've never been lonely. I like myself. I'm the best form of entertainment I have. Let's drink more wine!"

Another thing I can't help but notice is the correlation between these famous poets and my favorite poets. Though a lot of people don't notice the correlation between hip-hop and poetry, that's all I see when I read my favorite artist's lines, therefore I can't help but mention it in this forum. I hope I don't offend with this statement, but Kendrick Lamar seems like the perfect example of a modern-day Shakespeare, persona-wise. He's everybody and nobody; a perfectly omniscient observer of L.A. street life, America as a country, civil rights, and atheism vs. religion.

[rayheinrich]

I just LOVE Bukowski!

"Wow, it's Friday night, what are you going to do? Just sit there?"
Well, yeah. Because there's nothing out there. It's stupidity.
Stupid people mingling with stupid people.  

Sorry for all the millions, but I've never been lonely. I like myself.
I'm the best form of entertainment I have. Let's drink more wine!"

Spoken like a true poet. (Show me a poet who likes to party and I'll show you a poet who doesn't have
much time to write poetry. [And don't offer up Dylan Thomas as an exception; he was Welsh.] )

Poetry is Rap(Hip-Hop* "music") and Rap is poetry.

Wiki has a good article that contains a section explaining the mechanics/poetic-structure of Rap.
Wikipedia Rapping Article

Look especially at the "Flow" section:
   2.1 History of flow
   2.2 Styles
   2.3 Rhyme
   2.4 Rhythm
   2.5 Rap notation and flow diagrams

The complexity of this poetic form is simply amazing.  (Sonnets come in third.)


*Wiki has a good article on the Hip-Hop culture as well: Wiki Hip-Hop

[NobodyNothing]

Okay.  I've read Bukowski (poems of his here and there), but have never "delved" into him, admittedly.  Read so much about him, of course.  How could one not?  You're always bumping into him somewhere.

Perhaps I will finally delve into him.

[3zu]

persona - mask for an actor - fuck bukowski, his appeal rooted mostly in the fact that he was a less feminized male compared to those around him and certainly to all those who speak about him - is why his writing has meat -

persona - mask for an actor - think gunslinger - Doc Holliday would have made a hell of a poet - no mask & more frightening for that fact - even more than Jack the Ripper -

persona - mask for an actor - Adolph Hitler - primo example of the feminized male - bunkerized & death-camped, uniformed & suicidal genocidist who, at the end, had no mask big enough to hide him from the howling madness

persona - a game for the semi-conscious, homo ludens, man the player -
all the stage is a world - in the presence of God man always lies then seeks to blame God for it - poets are most notorious for this -

a man should be most careful only of this, what he stoops down for
to pick up -