Posts: 250
Threads: 85
Joined: Dec 2013
Revision 5-17-15, Ray, RiverNotch
[Note that through-composed music never repeats, whereas strophic music does.]
Song lyrics are tonal unless they contemplate the identity of some object. Through-composed lyrics follow the same literary principles as other written works, but strophic lyrics differ.
Because of the recursive nature of strophic musical settings, strophic lyrics are constrained such that they may contemplate the identity of one and only one object. Said somewhat differently to clarify, the repeated musical settings of strophic music (verses and choruses, essentially) force lyrical sections to interact such that their shared aspects emerge as the principle focus. Efforts to frustrate this inherency will, ironically, demonstrate it.
Once established, the identity of an object may be examined in one and only one of four ways. Specifically, the identity of an object may be examined in relation to
1. Itself, alone,
2. External forces,
3. Inferior hazards, or
4. Superior hazards.
To explicate, strophic lyrics may:
1. Contemplate an object's identity without more,
2. Assert its identity and describe it by placing it in opposition to other objects,
3. Showcase the strength of its identity by subjecting it to hazards it will succeed against, or
4. Show the weakness of its identity by having it fail against those hazards.
A song about a basketball would be of type 1. If the basketball encountered a soccer ball, the song would be of type 2. If the soccer ball attacked the basketball and lost out, it would be a type 3 song. And if the basketball were defeated by the soccer ball, the song would be of type 4.
Original:
I've been spending 10–15 hours a week revising my lyrics primer, and here's a piece of what's likely to be absolute crap that I'd like to include. It seems right to me, but I think I'm not being objective.
It's this:
There are only four kinds of songs:
(1) identity formation and assertion songs (I'm X; lots of rap, for instance),
(2) maintaining balance songs (to keep thing X, thing Y needs to be dialed back; Missing the War, Ben Folds),
(3) aggressive idiosyncratic pursuit songs (I'm going all in; New York, New York);
(4) idiosyncratic unhealthy pursuit songs/Faustian bargain songs (a personal strength/asset becomes a weakness/liability; Billy Joel's Piano Man), and
(5) the rest are "merely atmospheric" songs (tone lyrics; Beck's "Loser").
The question is, is this an exhaustive list? If you think it isn't, please point me to an exception, if you can think of one.
What I like about the list is that it tends to foreground the song's subject, not its speaker. So, for instance, Adele's Rolling in the Deep seems like, at first, a song about Adele. It's not. It's a song about a guy trying to maintain balance.
If I'm wrong, call me out on it, if you would. Much obliged, and heresit:
Posts: 1,827
Threads: 305
Joined: Dec 2016
I would respond, but this seems for Billy alone, besides you probably wouldn't like what I have to say on the topic 
Dale
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
Posts: 1,279
Threads: 187
Joined: Dec 2016
Maybe just send billy a pm?
Posts: 5,057
Threads: 1,075
Joined: Dec 2009
in truth i know nothing about lyrics apart from knowing that i like certain ones, [songs that is]
i think others who actually partake of the writing of lyrics should jump in with some replies, or even some who don't.
dale, jump in; it's a discussion in the discussion forum.
Posts: 1,139
Threads: 466
Joined: Nov 2013
I'm troubled by a few things on the list, though:
I can't help but feel that this list doesn't address songs that address nations or issues or whatever (I'd think songs have that sort of freedom, to be more assertive and less poetic with their points, but right now I can't think of any examples -- Blowin' in the Wind, maybe, which is a constant hammering of questions, that don't assert an identity or a thematic ideal, and Fiddler and the Drum, which isn't exactly Faustian?) , songs that are pure tragedies (the second involves almost getting into one, the third involves something Faustian, which isn't the only kind of tragedy -- Like a Rolling Stone doesn't necessarily imply a Faustian deal, and Once in a Lifetime is just plain sad), and songs that are complete and utter nonsense (I'll count Beck's Loser into this, but I'm very, very sure I Zimbra makes no sense, plus a lot of satires and children's songs). If I did something like this, I'd maybe do something based on Frye's theory of modes -- but that's only because I'm currently reading his theory of modes.
Posts: 67
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2015
Sacred songs?
Story-telling songs?
Posts: 444
Threads: 285
Joined: Nov 2011
(05-03-2015, 06:47 AM)crow Wrote: I've been spending 10–15 hours a week revising my lyrics primer, and here's a piece of what's likely to be absolute crap that I'd like to include. It seems right to me, but I think I'm not being objective.
It's this:
There are only four kinds of songs:
(1) identity formation and assertion songs (I'm X; lots of rap, for instance),
(2) maintaining balance songs (to keep thing X, thing Y needs to be dialed back; Missing the War, Ben Folds),
(3) aggressive idiosyncratic pursuit songs (I'm going all in; New York, New York);
(4) idiosyncratic unhealthy pursuit songs/Faustian bargain songs (a personal strength/asset becomes a weakness/liability; Billy Joel's Piano Man), and
(5) the rest are "merely atmospheric" songs (tone lyrics; Beck's "Loser").
The question is, is this an exhaustive list? If you think it isn't, please point me to an exception, if you can think of one. 1. You list 5 not 4, and the 5th is very close to being a catch-all:
"There are only three colors: 'red', 'green', and 'other'.
2. The attributes that define the categories are inconsistent:
"There are only three colors: 'red', 'green', and 'bright'.
3. The categories are ambiguous, they depend too heavily on subjective interpretation;
"There are only three colors: 'kind of redish', 'sort of greenish', and 'somewhat otherish'.
4. The categories are presented as (probably) all-inclusive:
Is this lemon 'red' or 'green'?
5. On the plus side these categories provide the basis for amusingly illogical discussions:
"That lemon is RED!" "No, NO, it's GREEN!"
There's more, but I need to get back to listening to my Gregorian chants followed by
the Magic Flute. Or was that Carmen?
As sincerely crabby as ever,
ray
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
Posts: 250
Threads: 85
Joined: Dec 2013
Ray and rivernotch--thanks! That was exactly the kind of interrogation I was after.
Ray--excellent feedback. Here's my response, which is basically just me agreeing:
1. You list 5 not 4, and the 5th is very close to being a catch-all:
"There are only three colors: 'red', 'green', and 'other'.
--who knows how I got five and four messed up--should've been five.
--type 5 should've said, more simply, "non-narrative"
2. The attributes that define the categories are inconsistent:
"There are only three colors: 'red', 'green', and 'bright'.
--I'll fix this mismatching issue. I think it's a phrasing problem.
3. The categories are ambiguous, they depend too heavily on subjective interpretation;
"There are only three colors: 'kind of redish', 'sort of greenish', and 'somewhat otherish'.
--I think clearing up 2 will fix this as well
4. The categories are presented as (probably) all-inclusive:
Is this lemon 'red' or 'green'?
--that's what I was going for. To me, this isn't a bug, it's a feature.
5. On the plus side these categories provide the basis for amusingly illogical discussions:
"That lemon is RED!" "No, NO, it's GREEN!"
--that was my starter question, basically. what songs escape these categories.
----These five issues get me closer to the right track. Many thanks
I'm revising the rubric based on this, and I'll test it against RiverNotch's counterexamples.
A yak is normal.
Posts: 444
Threads: 285
Joined: Nov 2011
I'm looking forward to version 2.
While you've chosen an impossible task, I feel it will be fun to
comment on each of your many abject failures*.
ray
* Which, as you've said, is both intended and hoped for
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
Posts: 250
Threads: 85
Joined: Dec 2013
Looking forward to being flattened.
A yak is normal.
Posts: 294
Threads: 4
Joined: Sep 2013
I consulted my son who has his fingers on the pulse of today's music more than I, and he agrees you've nailed it. I personally seek out the underground songs whose lyrics actually seem more poetic, but I have to admit I could probably squeeze them into one category or another. I'll have to think on that more. Just out of curiosity, where would you put this one?
The Ventia Fair--"bleeding a stone"
Watch what you say!
'Cause I swear to god I'll burn this whole thing to the ground
The luckiest vultures will choke on the ash while the rest lay down to starve without a scrap
It was an electrical fire
And I can keep a story straight
If you're gonna come for us
You'll be bleeding a stone while it rolls down hill
and if I'm gonna fail at least allow me to blame it on myself
Watch how it plays!
I almost hope you'll call my bluff and roll the dice
Like a snake eyes its prey you just watched for the chance to come slithering beneath the smoke unscathed
It was an electrical fire
I'll keep my story straight
A simple fraying of wires
I should've been more careful
Taste the soot on your tongue
It's a blizzard of all the things I was scared I'd give up on
But I'd throw myself in the fire to snuff you out.
If you're gonna come for us
The bones will have already been picked clean
And your loneliness comforts us
If you're gonna come for us
Search all you want there'll be nothing left
And your loneliness comforts us
But you'll never blame it on yourself
If I'm gonna fail, like you're certain I will, at least let me blame it on myself.
(and I have to admit, before you are too harsh on it, my son wrote the lyrics. Performed by a fairly popular band, never really given enough credit for their brilliance as is often the case)
And, just to have a go at chord structure for the fun of it, there is this:
Posts: 444
Threads: 285
Joined: Nov 2011
(05-16-2015, 12:20 AM)bena Wrote: And, just to have a go at chord structure for the fun of it, there is this:
Axis of Awesome is indeed awesome. I went on to hear/watch
a few more of theirs. The creativity, skill, production value of the videos
are excellent, but their commentary is right up there with the best satire.
Maybe not Jon Stewart/Daily Show; but they're not sloppy. When they make
fun, it comes from a knowledge of the subject... and they're funny.
--------------------------------------------------
Oh, and on the song categorization thing: Another analogy that comes to mind is astrology.
Astrologists can indeed categorize all human endeavor, not just its songs. (And predict its
future as well). The problem I have with their categorization is it's not repeatable, it relies
on individual opinions that seldom coincide. And in addition, the individual opinions are
so ambiguous as to provide no useful information. Categorization, itself, is useful for getting
votes and power by setting one category against the other, for entertainment, and for all other
things not included in the above.
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
Posts: 250
Threads: 85
Joined: Dec 2013
Based on Ray's response, here's my revision of my five song types. The original post said the five types are:
1. Identity formation and assertion
2. Finding balance
3. Aggressive idiosyncratic pursuit
4. Strength becoming a weakness/Faustian bargain
5. Merely atmospheric
Ray's response boiled down to these five points (as I understood them):
1. If "merely atmospheric" is a catch-all, then of course the rubric's exhaustive--any list + "merely atmospheric" would be equally exhaustive
2. There are parallelism problems, specifically that the entries *aren't parallel*
3. The categories are so elastic that they can be forced to fit an example without the person whose doing the forcing necessarily even realizing
4. To the extent that the fifth entry isn't a catch-all, there are examples that the list fails to accommodate, and
5. When a case seems equally fit for more than one category, trying to make a final determination feels goofy.
In response, I'm revising the original post to read as follows, and apologies for it being so dryly written:
[Note that through-composed music never repeats, whereas strophic music does.]
Song lyrics are tonal unless they contemplate the identity of some object. Through-composed lyrics follow the same literary principles as other written works, but strophic lyrics differ.
Because of the recursive nature of strophic musical settings, strophic lyrics are constrained such that they may contemplate the identity of one and only one object. Said somewhat differently to clarify, the repeated musical settings of strophic music (verses and choruses, essentially) force lyrical sections to interact such that their shared aspects emerge as the principle focus. Efforts to frustrate this inherency will ironical demonstrate it.
Once established, the identity of an object may be examined in one and only one of four ways. Specifically, the identity of an object may be examined in relation to
1. Itself, alone,
2. External forces,
3. Inferior hazards, or
4. Superior hazards.
To explicate, strophic lyrics may:
1. Contemplate an object's identity without more,
2. Assert its identity and describe it by placing it in opposition to other objects,
3. Showcase the strength of its identity by subjecting it to hazards it will succeed against, or
4. Show the weakness of its identity by having it fail against those hazards.
A song about a basketball would be of type 1. If the basketball encountered a soccer ball, the song would be of type 2. If the soccer ball attacked the basketball and lost out, it would be a type 3 song. And if the basketball were defeated by the soccer ball, the song would be of type 4.
A yak is normal.
Posts: 1,827
Threads: 305
Joined: Dec 2016
"Song lyrics are tonal unless they contemplate the identity of some object."
To say lyrics are tonal is incorrect, it is the notes that are tonal. If you are trying to say that lyrics are actual tonal in a way such as colors are tonal in a painting then I don't know what you mean by that, nor does it seem to be a well supported theory. I have no clue why this tonality of lyrics would change depending on what they talked about, this makes no sense.
"Because of the recursive nature of strophic musical settings, strophic lyrics are constrained such that they may contemplate the identity of one and only one object. Said somewhat differently to clarify, the repeated musical settings of strophic music (verses and choruses, essentially) force lyrical sections to interact such that their shared aspects emerge as the principle focus. Efforts to frustrate this inherency will, ironically, demonstrate it."
Sorry but this is simply not true. There is a musical form that has a refrain, but the refrain means something different each time because of what proceeds it. If you are talking about the small area of hymns and choral music, then sure, but it is a bit like picking the fly-shit out of the pepper, where is there a need to make this rather awkward distinction?
" Efforts to frustrate this inherency will, ironically, demonstrate it.""
The reason it goes this way is because that is why people use this form, they do not want to resist the form, if they did they would use something more appropriate. The statement above is not a logical conclusion to draw. It's like saying a play will have characters no matter how much one resists them as their are always characters in any play.
Dale
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
Posts: 250
Threads: 85
Joined: Dec 2013
Thanks much, Dale. I'll continue to revise.
I meant "tonal" like a tone poem. What's the word I'm looking for?
A yak is normal.
|
