Reluctant Flower-edit 2 (Erthona, ellajam, Psyche)

[LorettaYoung]

Reluctant Flower-edit 2 (ellajam, Erthona, Psyche)

[first_high_of_the_day]

I'm guessing you used some sort of meter on all of the lines because it basically sounds like one giant run on sentence. It's like listening to a song and instead of the notes taking you up and down on an adventure, it's just the same notes every time but with different words. The repetition makes it feel like your building to something, but then it just continues to repeat.

[LorettaYoung]

I'm guessing you used some sort of meter on all of the lines because it basically sounds like one giant run on sentence. It's like listening to a song and instead of the notes taking you up and down on an adventure, it's just the same notes every time but with different words. The repetition makes it feel like your building to something, but then it just continues to repeat.

---

Thank you for your time and impressions. Loretta

[ellajam]

Hi, welcome back. This has an engaging meter that added to the enjoyment of the poem for me, but there are some points where you seem to have lost clarity for the sake of the meter and rhyme. I'll put a few notes below, but I have to say the child/vines rhyme stood out as wrong, too many repeats of flower at the start and your final line keeps going over my head, I don't get it yet.

Reluctant Flower

She thought she was a flower child
passing scents frm verdant vines, from
picked from sultry virgin flowers while I like the s and v sounds I don't get virgin flower.
that thrived in luscious colored bowers.
She sauntered through a winding path
of cries and wonder, grapes of wrath. I find this line confusing.
Along the twisted turns a mist
of wanderlust and dreams of bliss. This isn't quite a sentence, maybe "holds" or "masks" instead of "of", or something better.
But buried deep and kept confined,
the wounds of misadventure pined. I have a hard time with wounds pining.
Tormenting trials that with time grew;
a tasty treat for satan's stew.

Reluctant flower in the glade,
on beds of thorns your petal's strayed; This seems forced, petal's strayed is odd.
where ripped to shreds by sharpened blades
then blown to dust in life's parades.
How apropos that clocks are made.

g.e.Kaye

Certainly worth working on, I hope some of my comments help.

[LorettaYoung]

Hi Ellajam: Yes, child and vine, certainly too long of a stretch; flowers are twice in the same verse and yes, close together, perhaps too close, however I was focused on the subject of flowers. Virgin flowers springtime, early summer. She cried in joy or pain, and saw wonders on the path, also ate some bitter grapes. Not sure about the sentence you think not proper, but will think about it. Exact sentence structure not the highest priority on my list though. Internal wounds pining, looked up the definition and it seemed to fit but I will check it out again. Petals strayed, the flower has petals, very delicate, and I think there's a metaphor here. The initial verse says she was a flower child, who did stray, and a flower has petals. Last line is food for thought; to measure her adventures, or misadventures in terms of choice and life consequences over time.
I think your points very relevant and helpful Ellijam and I will work on them. Thanks so much for taking the time. Best Loretta

PS: pined; verb to languish and weaken,

[Erthona]

Sounds very Blakenean, as in William Blake.

frm?  Of course the non rhyme child/vine.

I think you try and stretch your extended metaphor too far in places, like "virgin flowers". Flowers cannot be virgin as they have no hymen and the most common non-literal sense of virgin is "pure" which would not really apply. But as the flower is the girl, virginity is simply not an area they share. You probably could get by with using innocence instead and though a bit odd, things do happen to flowers that could represent a loss of innocence.  
In terms of meter, although the lines are often half headed, they always end on an accent, thus showing themselves to be lines of iambic tetrameter with rhyming couplets, except in the 2nd stanza where all of the end rhymes are the same. None of this seems to bother the reading, or at least I did not notice that some lines started with an accented syllable and some did not as I was initially reading this poem.

I understand the last line, although it is somewhat oblique. I think it is OK as it is the last line, so it is not disruptive to the poem and gives a person something to ponder. Still it does weaken the poem in the sense of the loss of energy at the end. I am uncertain if this is intentional, or simply being unable to word the line more clearly. I assume the clock represents the passage of time of the once pure, innocent and beautiful girl, as her beauty faded as a result of sleeping around and other adventures (one should probably assume drug use as she is a flower child). However, it was not the actions per se, but the effect on her soul that robbed her of her beauty. A modernized retelling of an older fairly tale motif. Witches were all beautiful at first but their evil which is symbolized in their appearance tells what has happened to them. Their general avarice, as well as their overweening desire to be the most beautiful, but also the hate at seeing any other beautiful woman, begins to rob them of their eyesight and turn their eyes red. The skin turns green with envy, the nose grows long and crooked due to lying, lying to others and to themselves. They eat children (a form of sympathetic magic) because they think it will help them regain their youth and along with youth, beauty.
In the poem the "flower child" is rendered ugly because of the effect of her sins over time. The only exception being that in the poem the destruction comes from an external source. What the poem has going for it is a fairly unique retelling of this theme, the detriment of the poem is the retelling is somewhat shallow.

Dale    

[LorettaYoung]

Hi Dale: Yes, I realize the first couplet has to go, will probably reword the first 4 lines. As to "virgin" I took that as symbolism for new and to suggest a season, and I thought it might reflect her newness in the beginning.

I appreciate the lesson in metrics, I have not concentrated on the beginning words enough, what does the lines being half-headed mean?

I really had no thought of portraying the girl as ugly; but wounded on the inside, and in life, destroyed;where do you see her has physically ugly? And did not mean to portray her as a witch; just beset by evil. The story about the witch is very interesting though.

My intention was to render the girl destroyed not ugly.
And you think the last line decreases the energy of the poem, because it takes contemplation or? I though of it as a statement of irony, about time and change, but if it weakens the poem I will have to think about it, possibly delete it.

Shallow, that is very interesting, I would love to know how you find it and if you have any suggestion for resolution.

Thank you so much Dale, for taking the time to read this. I have a lot to think about, and edit. Do you think this poem is worth my time or do you think I should can it.

The masterpiece; a very long time, I just started little over a year ago and it just gets more complex. Thanks again, Loretta

[Erthona]

Don't get me wrong when I say shallow, I only meany that there is much here to work with and considering that this is a short piece, it is a shallow treatment of the topic considering what it could be, not that it is shallow in terms of thinking.

"My intention was to render the girl destroyed not ugly."

"on beds of thorns your petal's strayed;
where ripped to shreds by sharpened blades
then blown to dust in life's parades.

I think if you wanted to portray as you say it would help to not use such appendage type images that symbolize beauty. Metaphorically, beauty destroyed is what this shouts. To me there seems a very obvious dichotomy between her action being internalized as sins, "But buried deep and kept confined, the wounds of misadventure pined" and the external effects, " your petal's strayed; where ripped to shreds by sharpened blades". For me, since the petals represent beauty, this says that her decadent free love hippie lifestyle from the narrator's point of view, were sins piled upon sins, "a tasty treat for satan's stew" (Satan should be capitalized) and this internal ugliness was reflected externally and destroyed her beauty. I'm not saying I am right, I'm just saying this is how I interpreted it and why.

In terms of a "half headed", it's just the opposite of a half foot. It works this way. The poem is primarily written in a certain meter, it can be any meter, but here it is iambic. Iambic begins with an unstressed syllable and ends with a stressed one. If a line is short one syllable at the beginning at the line but end with a stressed with a stressed syllable at the end of the line there are two way to interpret this line. either as a line of trochee with a half foot at the end of the line, that is it is missing the unstressed syllable that should be there; or as a line of iambic that is missing the first syllable (unstressed) at the beginning: thus, half headed. The determination that the line is in iambic is primarily due to the fact that most of the other lines are obviously iambic. In the end it does not matter if it is or isn't, or even if we should decide to call it such, all that matters is, is if the line is disruptive to the reading or not. In this case it is not. However, this should be a purposeful action on the part of the writer, not just a matter of luck. Or if luck, the writer has enough skill to ascertain if it is good luck or bad luck. I don't know "half headed" or "half-headed" is considered an actual poetic term, it makes sense to me. Maybe milo or Leanne knows, seems like I heard Leanne use it before. It's just easier to say that, the first unstressed syllable of the line appears to be missing, or maybe this is a line of trochee with the last syllable missing.

Oh yes, I think you might consider dropping the "Butt" at the beginning of L9, it doesn't really need to be there.

Dale

[milo]

In terms of a "half headed",  it's just the opposite of a half foot. It works this way. The poem is primarily written in a certain meter, it can be any meter, but here it is iambic. Iambic begins with an unstressed syllable and ends with a stressed one. If a line is short one syllable at the beginning at the line but end with a stressed with a stressed syllable at the end of the line there are two way to interpret this line. either as a line of trochee with a half foot at the end of the line, that is it is missing the unstressed syllable that should be there; or as a line of iambic that is missing the first syllable (unstressed) at the beginning: thus, half headed. The determination that the line is in iambic is primarily due to the fact that most of the other lines are obviously iambic. In the end it does not matter if it is or isn't, or even if we should decide to call it such, all that matters is, is if the line is disruptive to the reading or not. In this case it is not. However, this should be a purposeful action on the part of the writer, not just a matter of luck. Or if luck, the writer has enough skill to ascertain if it is good luck or bad luck. I don't know "half headed" or "half-headed" is considered an actual poetic term, it makes sense to me. Maybe milo or Leanne knows, seems like I heard Leanne use it before. 
Dale

usually referred to as a headless iamb.

[billy]

for me it's a journey of purity to impurity. from beauty to ugly
from happy to sad. [metaphorically speaking; impure ugly sad on the inside, loathing oneself] all in all a good effort. the rhyme feels okay (apart from 1st 2 lines) and the meter works [though i struggled with it in the last line.] could be made into a passable sonnet with a few less lines.

Reluctant Flower
She thought she was a flower child 2nd flower takes away from flower in the title.
passing scents frm verdant vines, from
picked from sultry virgin flowers this line feels like it's working to hard. to say something without much success, also 3rd use of flower
that thrived in luscious colored bowers.
She sauntered through a winding path
of cries and wonder, grapes of wrath. while grapes of wrath is the title of a Steinbeck classic, it does work well with the vine line though it's the anti-thesis of many words around it (wonder, wanderlust, dreams of bliss.
Along the twisted turns a mist
of wanderlust and dreams of bliss.
But buried deep and kept confined,
the wounds of misadventure pined.
Tormenting trials that with time grew;
a tasty treat for satan's stew.
Reluctant flower in the glade, the repetition of flower doesn't work for me
on beds of thorns your petal's strayed;
where ripped to shreds by sharpened blades
then blown to dust in life's parades.
How apropos that clocks are made. i think this could be better worded as it jars when i read it
g.e.Kaye 3/17/15

[LorettaYoung]

for me it's a journey of purity to impurity. from beauty to ugly
from happy to sad. [metaphorically speaking; impure ugly sad on the inside, loathing oneself] all in all a good
effort. the rhyme feels okay (apart from 1st 2 lines) and the meter works [though i struggled with it in the last line.] could be made into a passable sonnet with a few less lines.

Reluctant Flower
She thought she was a flower child 2nd flower takes away from flower in the title.
passing scents frm verdant vines, from
picked from sultry virgin flowers this line feels like it's working to hard. to say something without much success, also 3rd use of flower
that thrived in luscious colored bowers.
She sauntered through a winding path
of cries and wonder, grapes of wrath. while grapes of wrath is the title of a Steinbeck classic, it does work well with the vine line though it's the anti-thesis of many words around it (wonder, wanderlust, dreams of bliss.
Along the twisted turns a mist
of wanderlust and dreams of bliss.
But buried deep and kept confined,
the wounds of misadventure pined.
Tormenting trials that with time grew;
a tasty treat for satan's stew.
Reluctant flower in the glade, the repetition of flower doesn't work for me
on beds of thorns your petal's strayed;
where ripped to shreds by sharpened blades
then blown to dust in life's parades.
How apropos that clocks are made. i think this could be better worded as it jars when i read it
g.e.Kaye 3/17/15

Hi Billy: Yes, I agree with your vision; I wasn't thinking ugly, but since you are not the first to interpret it that way I must agree. I can see I must rewrite the first four lines.
Its a winding path I said before; she cried with joys and pain, encounter wonders, but also wrath; aren't all winding paths full of some of each.
Too many flower is the consensus of opinion; I will fix that when I rewrite.
And, as I see the consensus being the last line as problematic, I will most likely delete.
Thanks very much Billy, for reading and your helpful comments. Best Loretta

PS: A sonnet is an interesting idea billy.

[Erthona]

Thanks milo, yes headless. For some reason my dyslexia makes remembering words like that incredibly difficult, but anyway thanks for the corrections. It is important to pass along the correct nomenclature and not be making ones of our own.

Loretta,

The main problem with the poem is that it seems to not say what you wanted it to say, not that it is not a good poem. Maybe instead of just writing over it, you should keep it as is and check on it in a few months. That is not to say to not write a new version more to your liking, but I think this one, even with all the things you would want to eliminate from it has good potential. sometimes we write better than what we intended, because that is how creation happens. Just because you personally disagree with it, do not use that as an excuse to toss it. As a poet, if you wish to grow, you will eventually have to begin to see things from viewpoints other than your own and yes, even develop empathy for those viewpoints. So be kind to the poem, it doesn't deserve evisceration.

Dale

[Erthona]

Loretta,

The first thing is you have obviously expanded the poem. The second is that the lines are more regular. I still find "where" instead of "were" in the penultimate line to be disruptive. Some of the new lines don't really seem to follow.

"Friends called her 'freak' and 'flower child';
they though her color choices wild."              ("though" should be "thought")

It doesn't really make much sense to me that they would call her a "freak" because of her color choices. "Flower Child" in the 60's was not necessarily derogative and that was pretty much the only time frame it was used in reference to, were as "freak" was a word used in the 70's to describe a more edgier hippy. However it has been commonly used outside of that time period to mean something derogative, such as sideshow freaks. Pairing the two together leads to a time discrepancy, thus causing even more confusion than for the reason stated above.

In other lines, or line groupings it is difficult to relate it/them to the poem.

"On vans were painted "Jesus saves";
throughout the land passed silent graves."

What passed "silent graves"? Nothing before these two lines seems to answer that question, yet the answer does not seem to be contained herein. Actually, the way it is worded, it almost seems as though the "land passed silent graves", but then again, what does that have to do with the vans?  

Overall, you seem to be doing what I used to do and can still sometimes fall into if I am not very inspired. In order to fulfill the meter and rhyme you are putting in a lot of needless verbiage that does not advance, nor enhance the poem in any way. I know you are trying to flesh out the picture, which is good, but for every 1/3 that contributes to the poem, you have added in 2/3's that is just filler. This is not a good thing, but it is also not uncommon when one first starts working with formal poetry. Regardless, you were able to stick to your pattern throughout and as this is fairly long, had you not been able to recognize the pattern well, there would have been errors. The next step is to learn how to fulfill the needs of the pattern while still making every word count.
Still, it is easy to see you are making progress. Keep it up. I look forward to your next effort.

Dale

[LorettaYoung]

Loretta,

The first thing is you have obviously expanded the poem. The second is that the lines are more regular. I still find "where" instead of "were" in the penultimate line to be disruptive. Some of the new lines don't really seem to follow.

"Friends called her 'freak' and 'flower child';
they though her color choices wild."              ("though" should be "thought")

It doesn't really make much sense to me that they would call her a "freak" because of her color choices. "Flower Child" in the 60's was not necessarily derogative and that was pretty much the only time frame it was used in reference to, were as "freak" was a word used in the 70's to describe a more edgier hippy. However it has been commonly used outside of that time period to mean something derogative, such as sideshow freaks. Pairing the two together leads to a time discrepancy, thus causing even more confusion than for the reason stated above.

In other lines, or line groupings it is difficult to relate it/them to the poem.

"On vans were painted "Jesus saves";
throughout the land passed silent graves."

What passed "silent graves"? Nothing before these two lines seems to answer that question, yet the answer does not seem to be contained herein. Actually, the way it is worded, it almost seems as though the "land passed silent graves", but then again, what does that have to do with the vans?  

Overall, you seem to be doing what I used to do and can still sometimes fall into if I am not very inspired. In order to fulfill the meter and rhyme you are putting in a lot of needless verbiage that does not advance, nor enhance the poem in any way. I know you are trying to flesh out the picture, which is good, but for every 1/3 that contributes to the poem, you have added in 2/3's that is just filler. This is not a good thing, but it is also not uncommon when one first starts working with formal poetry. Regardless, you were able to stick to your pattern throughout and as this is fairly long, had you not been able to recognize the pattern well, there would have been errors. The next step is to learn how to fulfill the needs of the pattern while still making every word count.
Still, it is easy to see you are making progress. Keep it up. I look forward to your next effort.

Dale

Hi Dale; Yes to were and thought. You probably are right about the time discrepancy in most cases. I do know a woman though, and others who are ten years older than I that were called flower children; probably not freak.
What about unique or offbeat; words more common. I remember vans with Jesus save painted on them. Why does that not relate to the era? I do think the second line could be more precise though. She wandered many roads, declining with time. Are there, I will pick my brain to see if I can find any pictures not connected; but remember some of it is symbolic; she may have taken a trip to sea; the raft sinking is a metaphor for her life.

What about, vans............That traveled far by silent graves?

Of course, I don't want irrelevant words roads, I tried to keep the stanzas equal in lines.. was trying to repair shallowness with a painted picture. Do you think I need to delete or/and incorate to 8 lines each stanza; that they would relate as you think require some thought. I think getting the poem right, interesting and readable is more inspiring than the topic. I have spent many hours reworking it. In the early 60's they were beatniks; yes; out in the burbs perhaps that and unique or offbeat, as personalities.

Thanks very much Dale, you suggestion very thought provoking. I will make the changes you suggest, think of relatebility and what may be filler. Please consider though; that some of the instances are metaphorical or symbolic; like lost at sea.  Am always open to suggestions, especially though provokers.

Many thanks, much appreciate, Best Loretta  

[ellajam]

I don't have a problem with "freak and flower child". Late sixties: "Feel like letting my freak flag fly." David Crosby. IME it was during that same time when people would sneer hippy, freak or flower child in the same derogatory tone. Shame they didn't realize it wasn't an insult.

[LorettaYoung]

I don't have a problem with "freak and flower child". Late sixties: "Feel like letting my freak flag fly." David Crosby. IME it was during that same time when people would sneer hippy, freak or flower child in the same derogatory tone. Shame they didn't realize it wasn't an insult.

Ellijam: right on. I think time is a discrepancy by location. Earlier 60's out from NYC, they were still beatniks. Perhaps the time discrepancy is less important than giving the image? Thanks, Best Loretta

[Psyche]

And when her weary spirit failed,
her cry for help was never mailed.

An obvious rhyme that falls short of the poetry above it.  The word mailed was so forced it dropped the beautiful spirit this piece had going for it.  The drop stays consistent with the next few lines until -

Reluctant flower in the glade,
on beds of thorns your petal's strayed;
were ripped to shreds by sharpened blades
then blown to dust in life's parades.

Parades doesn't sit well with me, sticks out somewhat forced and nonsensical.

For me your edit from the first version is spectacular.  I can see where your skill is evidently growing and your message is taking on a more eloquent form of communication.

[LorettaYoung]

And when her weary spirit failed,
her cry for help was never mailed.

An obvious rhyme that falls short of the poetry above it.  The word mailed was so forced it dropped the beautiful spirit this piece had going for it.  The drop stays consistent with the next few lines until -

Reluctant flower in the glade,
on beds of thorns your petal's strayed;
were ripped to shreds by sharpened blades
then blown to dust in life's parades.

Parades doesn't sit well with me, sticks out somewhat forced and nonsensical.



For me your edit from the first version is spectacular.  I can see where your skill is evidently growing and your message is taking on a more eloquent form of communication.

Hi Psyche: I take the line about not being mailed as a metaphor;  at this point I consider her condition to be such that even the cry for help can't be accomplished. However, I will keep that particular line in my mind, as I myself
was questioning it.  As to parades, I see the various activities in life with parades as a metaphor, I thought of using charades; but kept the original parades as a deeper metaphor; as a parade is usually a positive event, however, ironically, personally I dislike parades and am applying It in the sense that our activities, the choices or way we develop are like a series of parades: education, children, marriage; and in her case her personal parade was obviously negative. Since you are the first to mention it I will await other feedback, but appreciate you're bringing it up. And thank you for you kind remarks about the reedit, I'm glad if it's beginning to be better. Best Loretta

[Erthona]

I would go with ella's view in terms of time, she was closer to the action than I was

Dale

[LorettaYoung]

I would go with ella's view in terms of time, she was closer to the action than I was

Dale

Yes, thanks dale; thinking back, although the word "freak" not common in Kansas, etc; it was in NYC and SF. I was asked about her cries for help not mailed, that it was awkward. I take it as a metaphor for her condition; but perhaps it does sound flat there, I wondering? Best Loretta