Madeleine

[none]

All lies,
You’re all lies

Those smiles,
Those lips and kisses

Lies,
They’re all lies

Words you said,
Promises you made

Lie,
Your love is a lie

But that’s fine,
I have no one

Come,
Lie down in my arms

Hold me tight,
I’m lonely tonight

[Erthona]

The idea of the "false lover" has been around for a very long time and has been approached in multiple ways. I was just reading a book I've had for many years, and poke at it from time to time to see if it's dead. It is called "Traditional British Ballads," and considering the writing which is easier to read than Chaucer, but less easier than Spenser, I would surmise the ballad "Sir Randall" at least in this version is probably from the 15th century. So at least for 600 years the "false lover" theme has been around. It has been done, and done, and done, then over done, then done some more. I find nothing in this poem that comes to the levels of the better poems of this style. It is bland, unoriginal, lacking in poetic tropes, and its use of white space is incomprehensibly. It lacks any rhythmic quality. The words are overly simplistic and evoke nothing. There are no strong images. It exposes the speaker as being fairly shallow although I suspect that was not intentional. One could find very similar pieces on any of the hundreds of the vanity sites that masquerade as poetry sites. At any given time I suspect there are hundreds if not thousands of very similar poems floating around the internet aether at any given moment. On top of that the writer seems to be frightened of using periods and still following the custom of capping the start of every line, which was put to bed over 60 years ago. The only reason to use the style is pure affectation as it adds nothing to the poem. The only positive I can see is that everything is spelled correctly. I would suggest for the writer in the future to write something other than a Love Poem, as they are beyond a doubt the most difficult poetry, along with religious poetry, to write.
So if you are disappointed that your poem got a poor critique you can think of it in two ways. You can pretend I'm just some old crazy loon who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, and wait around for some soft touches to tell you they think it is wonderful and believe them, or you can try your hand at another type of poem and see if you do better. who knows maybe you will. I would suggest searching for the truth is much more difficult than your poem implies.

welcome to the site,


Dale

[none]

It exposes the speaker as being fairly shallow although I suspect that was not intentional.

The speaker is indeed a shallow person and by the speaker, I am referring to myself as the piece is written from my own personal experience.

I'm fine with strong criticism, but if you would, can you explain to me what do you mean by "false lover"? Do you mean that the term refer to a love relationship in which one of the party knows the other party is lying or does it also includes a temporary biological relationship where each parties knows perfectly all the words they say are not true i.e. there is actually no love at all in the relationship?

[Erthona]

In relation to this poem the non-speaker would be the false lover, it does not matter if the speaker is aware or not aware of this in the beginning, as long as he becomes aware of this in the end. The reader is told at some point that the lover is false in some way. The extreme, as in Lord Randal, is that the false lover kills the other for known or undisclosed reasons. The least extreme would be emotional betrayal, of course for the non-false love, it is all pretty much the same as heart break feels pretty much the same as death. So although there are many different takes on this theme, they all amount to much the same thing. So to answer your question specifically it could be any of those things as long as one of the characters experiences the other to be false in some way. In other words they feel betrayed. In your particular poem, it is a reverse (if you are male) as it is usually a woman who is willing to accept a false lover for temporary comfort as men in the past were much too prideful to do so, although that has been changing since the sixties, so that is fairly normal these days, and only odd compared to the full history of this type of poem. I'm thinking of the Kris Kristofferson song, "For The Good Times" :

"Don't look so sad I know it's over
But life goes on and this world will keep on turning
Let's just be glad we had some time to spend together
There is no need to watch the bridges that we're burning
Lay your head upon my pillow
Hold your warm and tender body close to mine
Hear the whisper of the raindrops
Blowing soft against my window
And make believe you love me one more time
For the good times for the good times"

The false lover is one of the most experienced events for humans in love. Although the other person my not be truly false and have only fallen out of love, to the person still in love it feels like a betrayal and thus a "false lover" which is then dramatized to different degrees in literature, at least as far as the internal feelings are concerned. Although the person is really not dying, they of course feel like they are. One has to be an incredibly skilled writer to be able to pull this sort of poem off as it has been worked to death. I generally advise people that they should have ten years of writing poetry consistently and not be in love before attempting to write love poetry(not that anyone would listen to that ). One has to developed enough skill to be able to completely step outside the usual words and metaphors associated with love poetry and create a new metaphor (which is by no means easy) to express something about love. Within the love genre I would say that the false lover motif is one of the most difficult to write about. Maybe you would consider a nice pastoral, or a comment on current events

If you have any more question, I'll do my best to answer them.

Dale

[bena]

Ok, so you're fine with strong critique. I hope you are not just saying that to appear thick skinned, because I'm about to lay some harsh stuff on you.

There is nothing in this poem that hasn't been said a million times over and a million times better. You have to find better or different ways to freshen old material if it is to be taken seriously.

I swear, I may punch the next person who rhymes tight with tonight. But having said that, if you really want to fix some of this, you could change arm to arms...last time I looked most people have 2.

I personally cannot find anything to salvage. It's way too repetitive to be minimalistic, with absolutely zero poetic devices employed.

Ok...thanks for flying Air Bena....buh bye.

[none]

If you have any more question, I'll do my best to answer them.

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation.

Truth to be told, as absurd as it sound, this poem is actually not about love at all - it is about loneliness. Neither the speaker nor the non-speaker is in love with each other and both knows this perfectly from the start. It suppose to be a capitalistic relationship hinted by the title of this piece in correlation with the body of the writing.

Your criticism is absolutely spot on though in that every single line written in this poem are stuff that has been said again and again ad nauseam and risking myself looking like a pretentious fool - it was intentional.

Still, all in all, this poem is a total mess and I would just erase it permanently if not for a fact that a random person someplace else liked this piece (which didn't convinced me at all and thus the reason I'm here to find someone who can offer a genuine harsh criticism).

Thank you once again for your honest criticism and your explanation, I truly appreciate it for the time you took in writing them down.

But having said that, if you really want to fix some of this, you could change arm to arms...last time I looked most people have 2.

Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
Still, I'm not sure what's the correct line suppose to be.

"Lie down on my arm" - to describe being in a horizontal position above one of the arms - is the correct line (I assume(?)) but it somehow sounds weird. I would appreciate it if anyone can tell me what the correct grammar is.

[Erthona]

You do not say "lie down on my arm". You say "Lie down in my arm". For that statement to be correct "arm" would need to be plural, thus...

"Lie down in my arms"

I would not use "lie down on my arm" as that sounds just too weird. It is the polar opposite of a cliche. That phrase is not use for a reason, it is not compelling. Arms are compelling because it is similar to a hug. When one thinks of Lying down on arm, it images just that, someone laying on top of someone's arm. It is odd and uncomfortable. The better phrase for one arm would be. Let me put my arm around you.


Dale

[Leah S.]

A false lover would be a lying cheating deceptive lover. "False" is a bit of an anachronism in this sense, but the topic is ancient. You can't even imagine how many poems have been written over the years on this subject. Here's Sonnet 138 by the Bard himself:

When my love swears that she is made of truth,
I do believe her, though I know she lies;
That she might think me some untutor'd youth,
Unlearned in the world's false subtleties.
Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
Although she knows my days are past the best,
Simply I credit her false-speaking tongue;
On both sides thus is simple truth suppressed,
But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
And wherefore say I not that I am old?
O, love's best habit is in seeming trust,
And age in love loves not to have years told:
Therefore I lie with her, and she with me,
And in our faults by lies we flattered be.

So you are in excellent company and should strive to excel thereby.
I think your topic is perfectly okay, since people have been writing poetry about it since the dawn of written language. Just realize that you have to figure out how to make your contribution noteworthy.

[none]

You do not say "lie down on my arm". You say "Lie down in my arm".  For that statement to be correct "arm" would need to be plural, thus...

"Lie down in my arms"

I would not use "lie down on my arm" as that sounds just too weird. It is the polar opposite of a cliche. That phrase is not use for a reason, it is not compelling. Arms are compelling because it is similar to a hug. When one thinks of Lying down on arm, it images just that, someone laying on top of someone's arm. It is odd and uncomfortable. The better phrase for one arm would be. Let me put my arm around you.


Dale

"Let me put my arm around you." would destroy the word play (Lie) and the rhyme at the end of the lines. I guess I opt with your first option "Lie down in my arms".

Thanks very much for your time and for the correction.

A false lover would be a lying cheating deceptive lover. "False" is a bit of an anachronism in this sense, but the topic is ancient. You can't even imagine how many poems have been written over the years on this subject. Here's Sonnet 138 by the Bard himself:

When my love swears that she is made of truth,
I do believe her, though I know she lies;
That she might think me some untutor'd youth,
Unlearned in the world's false subtleties.
Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
Although she knows my days are past the best,
Simply I credit her false-speaking tongue;
On both sides thus is simple truth suppressed,
But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
And wherefore say I not that I am old?
O, love's best habit is in seeming trust,
And age in love loves not to have years told:
Therefore I lie with her, and she with me,
And in our faults by lies we flattered be.

So you are in excellent company and should strive to excel thereby.
I think your topic is perfectly okay, since people have been writing poetry about it since the dawn of written language. Just realize that you have to figure out how to make your contribution noteworthy.

Thank you for your kind critic, but this failed poem is not about love at all (and thus why it is a failure as it cause misunderstanding for the readers).

If this is even worth mentioning, Madeleine is a variation of Magdalene, the prostitute referred in the Christian tradition. So yeah, this failed poem is about loneliness and not about love.

Cheers.

[tectak]

You do not say "lie down on my arm". You say "Lie down in my arm".  For that statement to be correct "arm" would need to be plural, thus...

"Lie down in my arms"

I would not use "lie down on my arm" as that sounds just too weird. It is the polar opposite of a cliche. That phrase is not use for a reason, it is not compelling. Arms are compelling because it is similar to a hug. When one thinks of Lying down on arm, it images just that, someone laying on top of someone's arm. It is odd and uncomfortable. The better phrase for one arm would be. Let me put my arm around you.


Dale

"Let me put my arm around you." would destroy the word play (Lie) and the rhyme at the end of the lines. I guess I opt with your first option "Lie down in my arms".

Thanks very much for your time and for the correction.

A false lover would be a lying cheating deceptive lover. "False" is a bit of an anachronism in this sense, but the topic is ancient. You can't even imagine how many poems have been written over the years on this subject. Here's Sonnet 138 by the Bard himself:

When my love swears that she is made of truth,
I do believe her, though I know she lies;
That she might think me some untutor'd youth,
Unlearned in the world's false subtleties.
Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
Although she knows my days are past the best,
Simply I credit her false-speaking tongue;
On both sides thus is simple truth suppressed,
But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
And wherefore say I not that I am old?
O, love's best habit is in seeming trust,
And age in love loves not to have years told:
Therefore I lie with her, and she with me,
And in our faults by lies we flattered be.

So you are in excellent company and should strive to excel thereby.
I think your topic is perfectly okay, since people have been writing poetry about it since the dawn of written language. Just realize that you have to figure out how to make your contribution noteworthy.

Thank you for your kind critic, but this failed poem is not about love at all (and thus why it is a failure as it cause misunderstanding for the readers).

If this is even worth mentioning, Madeleine is a variation of Magdalene, the prostitute referred in the Christian tradition. So yeah, this failed poem is about loneliness and not about love.

Cheers.

....just in time. I almost brought Proust in to it.
You should have said Magdelene if you meant Magdelene. I find this generally works. Saying what you don't mean is convolvulus....by which, of course, I meant confusing.
Best,
tectak

[none]

You should have said Magdelene if you meant Magdelene.

So true and I have to post this reply fast before I'm accused of bumping this thread but in my defense - what is the chance for a John in this modern age to come across a hustler by the moniker Magdalene? I know I never met one.

Cheers.

[tectak]

You should have said Magdelene if you meant Magdelene.

So true and I have to post this reply fast before I'm accused of bumping this thread but in my defense - what is the chance for a John in this modern age to come across a hustler by the moniker Magdalene? I know I never met one.

Cheers.

You're looking in the wrong nunnery.
Oh, for Pete's sake...in the crook of my arm.

Best,
tectak

[Leah S.]

You do not say "lie down on my arm". You say "Lie down in my arm".  For that statement to be correct "arm" would need to be plural, thus...

"Lie down in my arms"

I would not use "lie down on my arm" as that sounds just too weird. It is the polar opposite of a cliche. That phrase is not use for a reason, it is not compelling. Arms are compelling because it is similar to a hug. When one thinks of Lying down on arm, it images just that, someone laying on top of someone's arm. It is odd and uncomfortable. The better phrase for one arm would be. Let me put my arm around you.


Dale

"Let me put my arm around you." would destroy the word play (Lie) and the rhyme at the end of the lines. I guess I opt with your first option "Lie down in my arms".

Thanks very much for your time and for the correction.

A false lover would be a lying cheating deceptive lover. "False" is a bit of an anachronism in this sense, but the topic is ancient. You can't even imagine how many poems have been written over the years on this subject. Here's Sonnet 138 by the Bard himself:

When my love swears that she is made of truth,
I do believe her, though I know she lies;
That she might think me some untutor'd youth,
Unlearned in the world's false subtleties.
Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
Although she knows my days are past the best,
Simply I credit her false-speaking tongue;
On both sides thus is simple truth suppressed,
But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
And wherefore say I not that I am old?
O, love's best habit is in seeming trust,
And age in love loves not to have years told:
Therefore I lie with her, and she with me,
And in our faults by lies we flattered be.

So you are in excellent company and should strive to excel thereby.
I think your topic is perfectly okay, since people have been writing poetry about it since the dawn of written language. Just realize that you have to figure out how to make your contribution noteworthy.

Thank you for your kind critic, but this failed poem is not about love at all (and thus why it is a failure as it cause misunderstanding for the readers).

If this is even worth mentioning, Madeleine is a variation of Magdalene, the prostitute referred in the Christian tradition. So yeah, this failed poem is about loneliness and not about love.

Cheers.

I didn't say your poem was about anything except a false lover, in answer to the question you asked about the meaning of "false" in this context. It is obvious that loneliness is implied in your poem. I think you are only pretending to have a thick skin, witness your referring to your poem as "failed." Relax, and rewrite. Or junk it. But, please, no more thickly veiled resentment.

[tectak]

You do not say "lie down on my arm". You say "Lie down in my arm".  For that statement to be correct "arm" would need to be plural, thus...

"Lie down in my arms"

I would not use "lie down on my arm" as that sounds just too weird. It is the polar opposite of a cliche. That phrase is not use for a reason, it is not compelling. Arms are compelling because it is similar to a hug. When one thinks of Lying down on arm, it images just that, someone laying on top of someone's arm. It is odd and uncomfortable. The better phrase for one arm would be. Let me put my arm around you.


Dale

"Let me put my arm around you." would destroy the word play (Lie) and the rhyme at the end of the lines. I guess I opt with your first option "Lie down in my arms".

Thanks very much for your time and for the correction.

A false lover would be a lying cheating deceptive lover. "False" is a bit of an anachronism in this sense, but the topic is ancient. You can't even imagine how many poems have been written over the years on this subject. Here's Sonnet 138 by the Bard himself:

When my love swears that she is made of truth,
I do believe her, though I know she lies;
That she might think me some untutor'd youth,
Unlearned in the world's false subtleties.
Thus vainly thinking that she thinks me young,
Although she knows my days are past the best,
Simply I credit her false-speaking tongue;
On both sides thus is simple truth suppressed,
But wherefore says she not she is unjust?
And wherefore say I not that I am old?
O, love's best habit is in seeming trust,
And age in love loves not to have years told:
Therefore I lie with her, and she with me,
And in our faults by lies we flattered be.

So you are in excellent company and should strive to excel thereby.
I think your topic is perfectly okay, since people have been writing poetry about it since the dawn of written language. Just realize that you have to figure out how to make your contribution noteworthy.

Thank you for your kind critic, but this failed poem is not about love at all (and thus why it is a failure as it cause misunderstanding for the readers).

If this is even worth mentioning, Madeleine is a variation of Magdalene, the prostitute referred in the Christian tradition. So yeah, this failed poem is about loneliness and not about love.

Cheers.

I didn't say your poem was about anything except a false lover, in answer to the question you asked about the meaning of "false" in this context. It is obvious that loneliness is implied in your poem. I think you are only pretending to have a thick skin, witness your referring to your poem as "failed." Relax, and rewrite. Or junk it. But, please, no more thickly veiled resentment.

Never assume that the poet interjects his/her own psyche in to the poem. Judge the poetry,  not the poet. Mod

[Leah S.]

"Let me put my arm around you." would destroy the word play (Lie) and the rhyme at the end of the lines. I guess I opt with your first option "Lie down in my arms".

Thanks very much for your time and for the correction.


Thank you for your kind critic, but this failed poem is not about love at all (and thus why it is a failure as it cause misunderstanding for the readers).

If this is even worth mentioning, Madeleine is a variation of Magdalene, the prostitute referred in the Christian tradition. So yeah, this failed poem is about loneliness and not about love.

Cheers.

I didn't say your poem was about anything except a false lover, in answer to the question you asked about the meaning of "false" in this context. It is obvious that loneliness is implied in your poem. I think you are only pretending to have a thick skin, witness your referring to your poem as "failed." Relax, and rewrite. Or junk it. But, please, no more thickly veiled resentment.

Never assume that the poet interjects his/her own psyche in to the poem. Judge the poetry,  not the poet. Mod

K

---

All lies,
You’re all lies

Those smiles, Why not "Your smiles"?
Those lips and kisses Ditto

Lies,
They’re all lies Lies, lies, lies!

Words you said, What words?
Promises you made What promises?

Lie,
Your love is a lie

But that’s fine, really?
I have no one

Come,
Lie down in my arms

Hold me tight,
I’m lonely tonight I think that's a line from an Elvis Presley song.

A couple of things....you could improve this poem with a few well chosen adjectives. Also, we (the readers) know why you are lying with her in spite of her lies, but we don't know why she is lying with you in spite of your disdain. I want to know why she is lying to you, and what she wants from you.

[just mercedes]

Your poem reads like the words of a song from the age of crooners. Simple songs for simple situations? The only part of it I engaged with is the play with the two meanings of 'lie'.

[none]

A couple of things....you could improve this poem with a few well chosen adjectives. Also, we (the readers) know why you are lying with her in spite of her lies, but we don't know why she is lying with you in spite of your disdain. I want to know why she is lying to you, and what she wants from you.

Thank you, for the critique.

I take your consideration very much about changing "Those" with "Your" to become:

Your smiles,
Your lips and kisses

They do sound a lot better but also somewhat more intimate - something that I want to avoid.
Give me time to think of this.

As for the reason for the lies, this was supposed to be hinted in the title of the poem. But I guess, it's hard to notice it if the title is not unique enough for people to stop and ponder what it means. Still, to change the title from Madeleine to Magdalene as suggested by tectak is just too direct for my taste. I suppose I still feel the need to be slightly hidden.

Your poem reads like the words of a song from the age of crooners. Simple songs for simple situations? The only part of it I engaged with is the play with the two meanings of 'lie'.

Indeed, it's a simple situation of sexual exchange for money.

[Leah S.]

t

A couple of things....you could improve this poem with a few well chosen adjectives. Also, we (the readers) know why you are lying with her in spite of her lies, but we don't know why she is lying with you in spite of your disdain. I want to know why she is lying to you, and what she wants from you.

Thank you, for the critique.

I take your consideration very much about changing "Those" with "Your" to become:

Your smiles,
Your lips and kisses

They do sound a lot better but also somewhat more intimate - something that I want to avoid.
Give me time to think of this.

As for the reason for the lies, this was supposed to be hinted in the title of the poem. But I guess, it's hard to notice it if the title is not unique enough for people to stop and ponder what it means. Still, to change the title from Madeleine to Magdalene as suggested by tectak is just too direct for my taste. I suppose I still feel the need to be slightly hidden.

Your poem reads like the words of a song from the age of crooners. Simple songs for simple situations? The only part of it I engaged with is the play with the two meanings of 'lie'.

Indeed, it's a simple situation of sexual exchange for money.

The biblical "Magdalene" is loaded with associations....foremost that she was reformed (if she was even a prostitute to start with) and is now venerated as a saint and given the title "the First Apostle." Not sure you want to drag all that in. I worry about your feeling that you want to stay "hidden." Poets take terrible risks, because they don't hide their inmost thoughts, feelings, and ideas. I sympathize, though. There are certain poems I don't want to subject to strong criticism for that very reason. If you are not talking about keeping yourself hidden, but are talking about keeping certain meanings or associations in your poem hidden, I have to ask why, for heaven's sake?

[just mercedes]

Your poem reads like the words of a song from the age of crooners. Simple songs for simple situations? The only part of it I engaged with is the play with the two meanings of 'lie'.

Indeed, it's a simple situation of sexual exchange for money.

Then where are the lies?

[none]

Then where are the lies?

In the words that were said by her. You don't just go straight to it after the bargain, lies would be said through out the night as the two interacts only to end when morning arise.