I suck...and other things...

[NobodyNothing]

Springtime is

[billy]

that's just a passage , i'll have a read now.

---

in genral there's a workable piece here. i'll take you at you word and look at it as a passage and not search for an end or beginning. in general it repeats a lot, holds few images and carries a lot of rhetoric. it's certainly not total shit, though it does feel a little like a Shakespearean piece from richard II or henry IV, (not as good of course but in a similar vein. also try and keep an eye on the syntax.

I write total shit. Can anyone make this passage better for me? Admittedly, it's mid-sequence, so you don't know where it's coming from or going...but anyway...

Springtime is beautiful here in the mountains. beautiful can usually be subbed buy a more descriptive word or phrase.
How humbling to be once again overcome
By what sheerly exists beyond thinking it so... is sheerly needed?

Here it made sense to stop. For was not here the break doesn't work that well for me, maybe as the meter is already foregone you could move up [a place]
A place we marked out, a dominion we set apart
For what of ourselves to this world we owe, [do we owe]

For what of ourselves the will of the world,
This park, this grandeur, was it not conceived
Of some distant anguish, something forsaken, give something solid set the place with landmarks name the park or type of park what was forsaken? how was it grand? show the scene instead of describing it. is it a woodland park a kids park why or how does it affect you?

Some need of a common past, an idea
Of ourselves to preserve, when we were this,
All and only this, until the regard of death?

Not here a kingdom divine, here not the throne it sound like a role-playing game like dungeons and dragons which is good if that's what you're aiming for.
Of a God, here but the fact of the manifest
Endlessly being nothing more than itself,

For nothing it seems to lack, seems not a thing
Of itself to be known, forever expressing,
Ever possessing the means of itself. i've just banged my head to let my brain know it's not supposed to understand this verse

*****

Is here not our eden, not here dwell the idea [dwells the idea or dwell the ideas] i think
Of our primordial self, what makes us all
Of itself, takes us all back unto itself? there's a lot of itself's

Gazing for what lies within it, yet no more
Of itself in this darkness to be found, therein
But the barren womb, what had to've contained to have works better

Its immanence, else of its own immanence
It came wholly to be, created itself
Of once all that itself could possibly be.

Was not here the place of our fall, here not
The hour when something writhed free of itself,
Opened these eyes in the void of ourselves?

Not a myth this breach with our origin, nor
A figment the primal wound, such but our fate
Of what simply happened, of what of itself

The possible emerged, what in ourselves
Came distinctly to be, these aberrant eyes
Beholding in awe the raw plight of ourselves.

*****

Herein the savage consciousness, once woken
Within us, wherein till our end it abides,
What put our minds at war with existence itself.

Is this not the grim fire of original sin, not
The unmistakable scent of primeval guilt,
The unfaltering beat of primitive shame,

What bore our need of deliverance, the cry
Of the outcast, urge for atonement, the quest
For the relevant, the transcendent accord?

We breathe you to live, drink you to live, eat you
To live, kill you, defend you, breed you to live,
We of you who became orphaned by you,

We that imagine of you, we that reason
Of you, we in the starkness of death in this life
Endeavoring to find, create meaning of you.

Here not a kingdom divine, not here the throne
Of a God, here we confront our creator,
Here in the eden of our heart's discontent.

[Truerenigma]

I write total shit. Can anyone make this passage better for me? Admittedly, it's mid-sequence, so you don't know where it's coming from or going...but anyway...

Springtime is beautiful here in the mountains.
How humbling to be once again overcome
By what sheerly exists beyond thinking it so...

Here it made sense to stop. For was not here
A place we marked out, a dominion we set apart
For what of ourselves to this world we owe,

For what of ourselves the will of the world,
This park, this grandeur, was it not conceived
Of some distant anguish, something forsaken,

Some need of a common past, an idea
Of ourselves to preserve, when we were this,
All and only this, until the regard of death?

Not here a kingdom divine, here not the throne
Of a God, here but the fact of the manifest
Endlessly being nothing more than itself,

For nothing it seems to lack, seems not a thing
Of itself to be known, forever expressing,
Ever possessing the means of itself.

*****

Is here not our eden, not here dwell the idea
Of our primordial self, what makes us all
Of itself, takes us all back unto itself?

Gazing for what lies within it, yet no more
Of itself in this darkness to be found, therein
But the barren womb, what had to've contained

Its immanence, else of its own immanence
It came wholly to be, created itself
Of once all that itself could possibly be.

Was not here the place of our fall, here not
The hour when something writhed free of itself,
Opened these eyes in the void of ourselves?

Not a myth this breach with our origin, nor
A figment the primal wound, such but our fate
Of what simply happened, of what of itself

The possible emerged, what in ourselves
Came distinctly to be, these aberrant eyes
Beholding in awe the raw plight of ourselves.

*****

Herein the savage consciousness, once woken
Within us, wherein till our end it abides,
What put our minds at war with existence itself.

Is this not the grim fire of original sin, not
The unmistakable scent of primeval guilt,
The unfaltering beat of primitive shame,

What bore our need of deliverance, the cry
Of the outcast, urge for atonement, the quest
For the relevant, the transcendent accord?

We breathe you to live, drink you to live, eat you
To live, kill you, defend you, breed you to live,
We of you who became orphaned by you,

We that imagine of you, we that reason
Of you, we in the starkness of death in this life
Endeavoring to find, create meaning of you.

Here not a kingdom divine, not here the throne
Of a God, here we confront our creator,
Here in the eden of our heart's discontent.

Make it better for you? are you asking for rewrite or crit? As it stands there are some good elements and device in play. I like the way it doubles back on itself and tangles itself in itself. It could use some of the work it is worth yes but the sum of the work may be worth the sum of the work.

[NobodyNothing]

Thanks Billy and True. I appreciate. Let me ponder.

---

>PS...this is part of a LONG poem...as such...just like in a long opera...I feel I must almost constantly repeat/reiterate certain leitmotifs. Don't you have to in such longer works, to keep recycling the reader back into the central themes/motifs of the poem?

I don't know...

[Truerenigma]

Thanks Billy and True. I appreciate. Let me ponder.

---

>PS...this is part of a LONG poem...as such...just like in a long opera...I feel I must almost constantly repeat/reiterate certain leitmotifs. Don't you have to in such longer works, to keep recycling the reader back into the central themes/motifs of the poem?

I don't know...

the short answer is no, you don't have to. Repetition is used effectively though in many famous long poems though it may be for other reasons. You might recycle words but avoid recycling the reader, which you can't do anyway. The minute they get bored they just go drink beer or read another poem, or maybe go watch real housewives or big brother. It's a complicated and often misunderstood device but one of the main ideas is economy of words and language, think of it as a base paint but you want to use it with different shades and textures. You want a good economy of words in a long poem anyway it seems because no one wants to waste their time on a bunch of wastful words. But even that doesn't always mean you should repeat yourself. Another interesting thing to think about is that sometimes repetitions are not whole words or always words whole, sometimes they are reversals and verse rehearsals.

[NobodyNothing]

^^^Hmm...still pondering...I guess what I was getting at (I'm just being real here, though could easily be wrong...usually am)... that in operas leitmotifs (or recurring melodies) are oftentimes used/aesthetically employed. It's what I would call the branching out of complexity and the return to the base, the central themes...as in...Oh...I'm here again. Isn't that the pattern of life? That incredible disequilibrium followed by a recurring melody that re-centers you?

If it's all spiraling outward complexity without a return to an inherently familiar theme, then the listener/reader gets lost. Isn't that why even pop songs have verses followed by familiar choruses?

Just asking...

[Truerenigma]

mnemonics are to help the reader remember, yes.

This reminds me of a friend of mine who says she hates Mozart, because he's too repetitive, she says, he announces a theme and then runs it to the ground, according to her.

Her favorite piece is beethoven's symphony number 5.

---

Isn't that the pattern of life? That incredible disequilibrium followed by a recurring melody that re-centers you?

nope the pattern of life when you have food is eat sleep wake eat sleep wake

and when you don't have food it's search search search search search

in the end you always die die die die die.

as far as spiraling outward complexity if I had the first clue what you were talking about I would answer you.

If you try to only and always apply a single constant philosophical principle to both art and life both the art and the life will suffer in that sparcity.

and then a random, obscure quote goes right here.

---

Isn't that why even pop songs have verses followed by familiar choruses?

that chorus doesn't always take the same meaning. sometimes it is turned in the verse, or else the verse adds more depth to the general idea.

I guess what I'm getting at is if you get stuck saying the same thing different ways, try saying different things the same way.

[NobodyNothing]

^^^ I don't know. Life to me (and I think to most) is a back and forth between simplicity and complexity. Almost every great scientist I've read echoes this thought. Look at the Beatles. Why were they so great? Most of all, it's because they created so many simple melodies that stuck in people's hearts and minds. You can hum such melodies and people will remember them. So many pop artists try and try and try to create just one that will stick in people's minds. They created 70-80.

Yet I don't think people would accuse the Beatles of lacking in complexity in their career as artists.

Maybe that's a poor example...

As an educator, the learning process itself is one of opening oneself to the unknown, fostering that sense of disequilibrium in oneself. Over time, you mature your thought processes, you come to certain realizations, moments of clarity and simplicity. Pretty normal part of the learning process.

Anyway...

[Brownlie]

Well, after you die your corpse may go to a "wake." Now depending on what "you" are actually composed of is another matter. Regardless, the most important question concerning poetry is what type of literature should be distributed in anthologies throughout our school systems.

[NobodyNothing]

PS> Remember rayheinrich's poem "You" in the spotlighting-the-hogs section that people were fond of here? I think that's a good example of the use of a repetition ..."all about you again..."

[Brownlie]

PS> Remember rayheinrich's poem "You" in the spotlighting-the-hogs section that people were fond of here? I think that's a good example of the use of a repetition ..."all about you again..."

A good anaphora after a long epic battle written in formal verse seems to also work well.

[NobodyNothing]

^^^ Now, thanks to you, I've got to look up "anaphora". lol

[NobodyNothing]

Part 2 of this 8 part poem of which the previous part I put forth here that was the first third of the third part of the 10th poem of this 18 poem poetic opera...lol...anyway...lol...first love...

The Victim's Lair

The ravishing glow of sheer exuberance…
Unmistakably for my eyes.
Was I helpless, was there nothing
That might have prepared me for this?
In her eyes…what I then knew to be true:
Within this world was born the divine.

Who was I who watched her approach
But the abandoned and left for dead;
Who was I but the remains of a wish
Unshackled from the bondage of time;
Who was I but the wretch and the scourge
Disowned for the pilgrimage of love?

No!…not this!…what will not forget,
What will not feign to've conceded,
What will not condone the renegade's return...
In her eyes…the inviolate seed,
My hope, my home, my purpose, my love,
What comprised my every likeness within...

Not from you did I turn away...
There once came a love that awoke the dream
Of the all it ever wanted to be;
There once left a love fated to see
From what how so this possibility…
But what fell in love and met its shame.

It was for you that I turned away…
There is a knowledge derived from the shock
In beholding the stark enigma of loss;
There is a knowledge obliged to the wound
From whence the mem'ry of love born anew…
For I could not free this love from its pain.

In these eyes…the crux of an undying past…
The myth in the child that came to be true
But to shatter upon the image of you...
In these eyes…the ravaging flames of wrath...
The love that took refuge of its despair
In the heart of the beast lone in its lair…

Of course, I had to make sure the word "beast" was the sixth word, in the sixth line, of the sixth stanza...my weird numerological thing...

[Truerenigma]

^^^ I don't know. Life to me (and I think to most) is a back and forth between simplicity and complexity. Almost every great scientist I've read echoes this thought. Look at the Beatles. Why were they so great? Most of all, it's because they created so many simple melodies that stuck in people's hearts and minds. You can hum such melodies and people will remember them. So many pop artists try and try and try to create just one that will stick in people's minds. They created 70-80.

Yet I don't think people would accuse the Beatles of lacking in complexity in their career as artists.

Maybe that's a poor example...

As an educator, the learning process itself is one of opening oneself to the unknown, fostering that sense of disequilibrium in oneself. Over time, you mature your thought processes, you come to certain realizations, moments of clarity and simplicity. Pretty normal part of the learning process.

Anyway...

I don't think we are both in the same conversation ...

what does poetry have to do with life? poetry is trying to hold a button up with a stream of water from a squirt gun.

in life you eventually will need to put the squirt gun down and sow the button back on, but not in poetry.

---

PS> Remember rayheinrich's poem "You" in the spotlighting-the-hogs section that people were fond of here? I think that's a good example of the use of a repetition ..."all about you again..."

Ray's poem is equally simpler as it is more complex. The narrator took the addressee (or did the addressee take the narrator) through all of the seasons. Ultimately the refrain takes on many different shades despite the poem's plaintive tone.

[NobodyNothing]

^^^ I guess we're not in the same conversation as I can't follow what you're saying. That's okay. It happens.

[bena]

She's very vague, sometimes that one. But I love her because she is freaking brilliant and always right. I don't really know much about writing operas...I have preformed in one but it was in Italian and I didn't really know what I was singing. I can't really comment much on the poem itself, but I wanted you to know that everyone goes through the repeating cycle of wondering if you should revise, if the revision will be better...wondering about rhythm, structure, meaning. I have been writing since I was 8 and I'm 46 now, that's a long time--I have been published, and yet I never can tell if what I've written is wonderful or shit. That's why I post here to get objective views from fresh eyes.

As to the opera, I think it is interwoven and wonderfully complex. Yes, some of the words might be changed to improve flow, but I'm not educated enough on operas to tell you what to change. Perhaps someone who is an expert will follow with better advice, I just wanted to tell you to hang in there. It doesn't suck...you should change the title.

bena/mel.

[NobodyNothing]

She's very vague, sometimes that one. But I love her because she is freaking brilliant and always right. I don't really know much about writing operas...I have preformed in one but it was in Italian and I didn't really know what I was singing. I can't really comment much on the poem itself, but I wanted you to know that everyone goes through the repeating cycle of wondering if you should revise, if the revision will be better...wondering about rhythm, structure, meaning. I have been writing since I was 8 and I'm 46 now, that's a long time--I have been published, and yet I never can tell if what I've written is wonderful or shit. That's why I post here to get objective views from fresh eyes.

As to the opera, I think it is interwoven and wonderfully complex. Yes, some of the words might be changed to improve flow, but I'm not educated enough on operas to tell you what to change. Perhaps someone who is an expert will follow with better advice, I just wanted to tell you to hang in there. It doesn't suck...you should change the title.

bena/mel.

Hi. I just write what I want to write, what I like to write. I have no pretensions as to quality or any such thing like that. I like all sorts of poetry, so many different styles. I appreciate such variety here.

When it comes to my own particular style, I like dramatic poetry, poetry that's kind of soliloquy-based (love the Shakespearean soliloquy). I love mythology, and like inhabiting myths and mythic figures, attempting to personify them in a contemporary way, with a modern sensibility. I love that.

That part of the poem I wrote I was playing with the myth of the return of Christ, attempting to inhabit that mythic figure. Things like that excite me. I just like what I like. That's all.

I don't know...

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PS> How do you italicize or bold-en words/lines on this site?

[Truerenigma]

Yeah, I said there were things I like too, particularly repetition. I was wondering if he was going to remember that and that he asked me a fairly general question not completely related to the poem which went something like "don't you have to repeat yourself in long poems to keep recycling the reader? "

he probably meant it as rhetorical but I love it when people ask questions they believe illustrate a rhetorical and abstract in-general truth that we should just accept at face value as inherently always an unconditional and unquestionable self-evident fact, which I never do.

[NobodyNothing]

Yeah, I said there were things I like too, particularly repetition. I was wondering if he was going to remember that and that he asked me a fairly general question not completely related to the poem which went something like "don't you have to repeat yourself in long poems to keep recycling the reader? "

he probably meant it as rhetorical but I love it when people ask questions they believe illustrate a rhetorical and abstract in-general truth that we should just accept at face value as inherently always an unconditional and unquestionable self-evident fact, which I never do.

I wasn't really thinking/expressing clearly what I meant the other night. Kind of unsatisfied in what I said. That's on me. I kind of got struck by a half-baked thought midstream there, and kind of rambled about with it. I've been reading a lot about cosmology and quantum theory of late, that search for elegance and simplicity of theory and equation amongst all the intricate complexities of time, space, matter and motion. I'll blame it on that.

[Truerenigma]

No worries or regrets. press press on. brave reading. It will turn your brain to mush. Someone told me the other day that poetry is language at a quantum level. splat.

---

I love quantum physics and quantum mechanics. string theory is painful though. "look, my idea has an internalized consistancy and can never be proved or disproved."