Tax:

[billy]

What is the best tax system? why?

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i'm against VAT, as a business man i could and did claim all my vat back, even on my daily shopping (loopholes) i claimed it on fuel, tools, even holidays. if i were someone's employee i wouldn't have been able to...somehow it isn't a very fair system. if i did a job for anyone, i also charged them vat. which i paid in but because of loopholes got a large portion of back. so i say. tax on a pay as you earn basis and scarp the vat.

[addy]

Going with "other", I guess? Don't think it should be equal for all... above a certain income bracket, like if you're earning billions, a higher percentage seems reasonable. Of course, that's just one layman's view

[Todd]

Other, and this is another layman's view. I think taxes are very country dependant (no one size fits all). So, speaking for my own country (which is the only one I have any true context for), I guess it all depends on what you (and for the US it's you as a plurality) believe that government should do. If government should do a little than it needs a little money. It it should do a lot than it needs a lot of money.

For me, the government needs to protect national borders, maintain property rights, maintain the transit of goods (roads), as well as some other services that are for the societal good. Which means that they subsidize certain things (which is paid through taxes) so that the country will do more of it. This would include things like education, immunization and the like.

Then the arguments start even on this short list. What is most important, how much, how little. As a society, we than add the things we value and compromise with one another, and begin paying for them.

I tend to favor flat taxes over progressive as I think citizen's should proportionally carry the burden of government. I don't like complicated tax systems. I don't like loopholes and exceptions. VAT taxes can get a little problematic when you have to decide where in the supply chain you attach the tax or if you do it at every point in the supply chain. I worry about sales taxes carrying the burden of the tax (this was I think in the US dubbed the Fair Tax). I worry that no matter how they attempt to run exclusions it will end up impacting food costs and being too great of a burden on lower incomes.

It's a complex issue.

What is the best tax system? why?

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i'm against VAT, as a business man i could and did claim all my vat back, even on my daily shopping (loopholes) i claimed it on fuel, tools, even holidays. if i were someone's employee i wouldn't have been able to...somehow it isn't a very fair system. if i did a job for anyone, i also charged them vat. which i paid in but because of loopholes got a large portion of back. so i say. tax on a pay as you earn basis and scarp the vat.

[billy]

i presune you mean a standard rate of tax? it would certainly be the easiest to enforce, as long as there were no things like tax breaks etc. as of now, the largest companies often pay less than the small ones. they offset so much against their tax bill that they end up being owed monies from the tax man billions never get paid it was one of the misguided reasons vat came into play. and that got abused as well.
i think i could go with a flat rate tax system if it worked properly, though over a certain income i'd expect a slightly higher rate.

[abu nuwas]

We have of course become used to Income Tax, introduced as an emergency measure to fund the Napoleonic Wars, and somehow not abolished afterwards. We think of these taxes as a necessary evil, and the more liberal we are, the more accepting we are of them. In the UK, we have a whole plethora: Capital Gains Tax, Capital Transfer Tax, Inheritance Tax, National Insurance, Stamp Duty, VAT, Excise, as well as local Council Tax, supplemented by parking meters and fines. It does seem, that whatever else, and whatever the level of taxation, the primary objectives should be fairness and simplification.

When Value Added Tax was introduced, it was at a low level, and supposed to increase productivity. It is now 20% on anything you buy, and no-one now would make the productivity claim.

What if all taxes were abolished, but a single tax levied on property?

Or -- all taxes abolished, but the Government would be deemed to own x% of every company, sufficient to balance the books, but then set in stone? Perhaps some ancillary legislation to take care of sole traders. Companies could pay what dividends they wanted, and as they did so, money would floow into the Treasury coffers. No more legions of civil servants calculating all these taxes.

Tax is like a kind of sex through the looking glass, isn't it?

I'm an 'other'.

[billy]

hehe, all the taxes we have in the uk is the reason for the poll. it just seems such a waste of manpower, trees even fuel collecting it all. as long as it were one tax i'd be happy. it will never happen though, to get what they get now under one tax, we'd all be paying 50% or more. i bet if it was mandatory (without loopholes) and everyone actually paid 25% of their earnings, and companies actually paid 15% of their profits we'd collect more tax than we already do through all the revenue streams combined. you could make it 20% profit tax and allow 5% of that to be used on upgrading etc. make it come off the top end instead of the bottom end.

[Leanne]

If everyone actually paid that 25% of their earnings, as you say, and there were no more tax dodgers and no accountants allowed to fiddle with figures, then it might just work. I also don't mind a GST/VAT idea as long as it's set at a reasonable level (it's 10% in Australia and that's not too bad) and as long as they do away with exemptions, which never work for the people they're supposed to protect (the low income earners) and are instead exploited to buggery by the corporations because accountants know that as soon as there's a law, there's a loophole. In the long run, low income earners would benefit if corporations didn't.

I like that the heading of this thread reads Poll: Tax

[ChristopherSea]

10% flat tax and no more! That's after the government eliminates the deficit and balance their budget.

[billy]

If everyone actually paid that 25% of their earnings, as you say, and there were no more tax dodgers and no accountants allowed to fiddle with figures, then it might just work. I also don't mind a GST/VAT idea as long as it's set at a reasonable level (it's 10% in Australia and that's not too bad) and as long as they do away with exemptions, which never work for the people they're supposed to protect (the low income earners) and are instead exploited to buggery by the corporations because accountants know that as soon as there's a law, there's a loophole. In the long run, low income earners would benefit if corporations didn't.

I like that the heading of this thread reads Poll: Tax

i never noticed it till you pointed it out

i know small businesses fiddle their vat returns (i used to be a small business :J

i find it unfunny that corporations can make multi billions of dollars profit after tax.

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10% flat tax and no more! That's after the government eliminates the deficit and balance their budget.

that's what a lot of company pay...or less
if everyone just paid 10% a lot of things wouldn't happen... infrastructure, healthcare, unemployment etc.

[ChristopherSea]

If everyone actually paid that 25% of their earnings, as you say, and there were no more tax dodgers and no accountants allowed to fiddle with figures, then it might just work. I also don't mind a GST/VAT idea as long as it's set at a reasonable level (it's 10% in Australia and that's not too bad) and as long as they do away with exemptions, which never work for the people they're supposed to protect (the low income earners) and are instead exploited to buggery by the corporations because accountants know that as soon as there's a law, there's a loophole. In the long run, low income earners would benefit if corporations didn't.

I like that the heading of this thread reads Poll: Tax

i never noticed it till you pointed it out

i know small businesses fiddle their vat returns (i used to be a small business :J

i find it unfunny that corporations can make multi billions of dollars profit after tax.

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10% flat tax and no more! That's after the government eliminates the deficit and balance their budget.

that's what a lot of company pay...or less
if everyone just paid 10% a lot of things wouldn't happen... infrastructure, healthcare, unemployment etc.

Most of those things don't happen at 28-35%. It's all wasted by those bungling asses! Tighten their buget, eliminate all waste, turn a profit on your loans, bonds, etc. Get rid of their planes and limos and pensions! We need another revolution!

[newsclippings]

NO TAXES NOT EVER.


Or tax the rich. Until/less I become rich.

[Leanne]

I don't mind paying taxes. I just hate seeing my taxes benefit people who should have been paying more taxes. Corporate tax dodgers are a much bigger drain on the economy than welfare recipients.

[billy]

here in the philippines a lot of the txes go into the pockets of the senators and congressmen, there's a scandal here about 10 billion pesos of more pork barrel money going into their own wallets.

[ChristopherSea]

Same here billy. Congressmen take extravagant trips, have ridiculous staffs, lunches, dinners, they receive outrageous pensions, the pay for silly studies. Worse yet, they create bureaucracy to both obscure and propagate their exploits and waste even more. It's all financed by 'we the sheep' and it's sickening.

[rayheinrich]

Truly progressive taxes. It's much easier to make money
if you have money; the more money you have, the easier it gets.
Healthy economies depend a widely distributed flow of money.
Countries like this one:



are dead (they just don't know it yet).

[ChristopherSea]

Yes, the taxes are killing us.

[rayheinrich]

Yes, the taxes are killing us.

That "us" is the middle-class and the poor. The upper-incomes
and corporations aren't "us" and have never considered themselves
such (or the citizens of any country, especially any country that
tries to practice democracy). They have succeeded in the lobbying
and the outright buying of our elected officials who have killed
(that word again) most of the progressiveness in our current
system of income taxes and at the same time have shifted more
tax revenues into regressive taxes like sales taxes and fees which
take a much higher percentage of income from lowers (us) than
from uppers. Undocumented workers are doubly screwed as they
have to pay these taxes but don't receive much of their benefits.

Back to the 1800's and before...

[Todd]

I know most people in the US self-identify with middle class, but what constitutes middle class these days?

[rayheinrich]

I know most people in the US self-identify with middle class, but what constitutes middle class these days?

Capitalist class (1%) Top]level executives, high]rung politicians, heirs. Ivy League
education common.

Upper class 1% Top]level executives, celebrities, heirs;
income of $500,000+ common. Ivy league education common.

The super]rich (0.9%) Multi]millionaires whose incomes commonly exceed $350,000;
includes celebrities and powerful executives/politicians. Ivy League education
common.

The Rich (5%) Households with net worth of $1 million or more; largely in the
form of home equity. Generally have college degrees.

Upper middle class[1] (15%) Highly educated (often with graduate degrees),
most commonly salaried, professionals and middle management with large work
autonomy

Upper middle class[1] (15%) Highly educated (often with
graduate degrees) professionals & managers with household incomes varying from
the high 5]figure range to commonly above $100,000

Middle class (plurality/
majority?; ca. 46%) College educated workers with incomes considerably aboveaverage
incomes and compensation; a man making $57,000 and a woman making
$40,000 may be typical.

Lower middle class (30%)
Semi]professionals and craftsmen with a roughly average standard of living. Most
have some college education and are white collar.

Lower middle class (32%) Semi]professionals and craftsman with some
work autonomy; household incomes commonly range from $35,000 to $75,000.
Typically, some college education.

Working class (30%) Clerical and most blue collar workers whose work is
highly routinized. Standard of living varies depending on number of income earners,
but is commonly just adequate. High school education.

Working class (32%) Clerical, pink and blue collar workers with often low job
security; common household incomes range from $16,000 to $30,000. High school
education.

Working class (ca. 40% ] 45%) Blue collar workers and those whose jobs are highly routinized
with low economic security; a man making $40,000 and a woman making $26,000
may be typical. High school education.

Working poor (13%) Service, low]rung clerical and some blue collar workers.
High economic insecurity and risk of poverty. Some high school education.

Lower class (ca. 14% ] 20%) Those who occupy poorly]paid positions or rely
on government transfers. Some high school education.

Underclass (12%) Those with limited or no participation in the labor force.
Reliant on government transfers. Some high school education. The poor (ca. 12%)
Those living below the poverty line with limited to no participation in the
labor force; a household income of $18,000 may be typical. Some high school
education.

References: Gilbert, D. (2002) The American Class Structure: In An Age of Growing
Inequality. Belmont, CA: Wadsworth; Thompson, W. & Hickey, J. (2005). Society in
Focus. Boston, MA: Pearson, Allyn & Bacon; Beeghley, L. (2004). The Structure of
Social Stratification in the United States. Boston, MA: Pearson, Allyn & Bacon.

[Leanne]

Now that's just silly. Americans don't have class.