Villanelle Philosophy

[Brownlie]

This poem is a tough gig I always end up contorting words to fit structure and then sometimes I abandon structure altogether in frustration. The second refrain seems to go well if you can use some sort of enjambment with it.

[Leanne]

Choose words that have more than one meaning, or at least several possible connotations. And if your refrain isn't working as you go through the poem, change it for one of your other b-rhyme lines and see if that is any better.

It's best not to shoe-horn the rest of your poem in just to make the refrains work. If that's necessary, it's the refrains that are broken.

[billy]

This poem is a tough gig I always end up contorting words to fit structure and then sometimes I abandon structure altogether in frustration. The second refrain seems to go well if you can use some sort of enjambment with it.

not sure there's any better advice than leanne gave.

i think you answered your own question when you said "I always end up contorting words to fit" i tend to do the same with most of the poetry forms i try. i think the idea is to keep at it and listen to feedback.
one of my failings is missing a half foot in the last line of a poem the bad thing is i see it but for some reason i don't change it.

back to the contorting; all you can do is try not to do it. one of the ways i do something like a vill is to get it on the screen; all the lines, then swap and change them, basically do an in depth edit or 5, before i post it. another point i would make is that you don't lose heart. just try your best. i've seen how you edit and i really think you should be proud. it isn't about being that great poet, it's about improving your craft. stick with it

[milo]

This poem is a tough gig I always end up contorting words to fit structure and then sometimes I abandon structure altogether in frustration. The second refrain seems to go well if you can use some sort of enjambment with it.

I think part of it is that a villanelle is supposed to be tough to some degree. Many people avoid them because they can be a frustrating pain in the ass.

Oh, but when you get them right . . . they sing!

[Brownlie]

All of these comments were useful. I'd like to hear what people think about refrains in general. Also, Billy would make an excellent philosopher.

[Leanne]

The refrain (repetend) is your chorus -- songs with shitty choruses don't stay in people's heads, therefore they don't make money. Poets don't make money anyway, but the idea of being dismissed as pointless as soon as the poem is finished can be quite upsetting.

Refrains should be subtle. They're tying the poem together, not bludgeoning it into shape. Punctuation and enjambment are invaluable tools. Remember that in a villanelle, your repetends need to come together at the end and should provide a sense of satisfaction or conclusion. If you choose two lines that don't logically go together, you have failed before you began. If you choose two lines only because they go together, you may be in the same danger.

Learning the rules of any form is easy. Realising when to use a form and what to use it for can take years. Play. There is no substitute for silliness.

And bear in mind that just because a poem makes you laugh, there's no proof that the writer wasn't crying.

[milo]

The refrain (repetend) is your chorus -- songs with shitty choruses don't stay in people's heads, therefore they don't make money. Poets don't make money anyway, but the idea of being dismissed as pointless as soon as the poem is finished can be quite upsetting.

Refrains should be subtle. They're tying the poem together, not bludgeoning it into shape. Punctuation and enjambment are invaluable tools. Remember that in a villanelle, your repetends need to come together at the end and should provide a sense of satisfaction or conclusion. If you choose two lines that don't logically go together, you have failed before you began. If you choose two lines only because they go together, you may be in the same danger.

Learning the rules of any form is easy. Realising when to use a form and what to use it for can take years. Play. There is no substitute for silliness.

And bear in mind that just because a poem makes you laugh, there's no proof that the writer wasn't crying.

On the interesting point of refrains - If you write the perfect heroic couplet, you may also have the makings for a perfect villanelle . . .

[Leanne]

What's that you say? Everyone knows that a heroic couplet is just a pair of midgets with swords.