so you're not up to it.

[billy]

(not sex) giving feedback. this is the 1st post of a new member, not the 2nd or the 3rd post but the 1st post.

Hello there! I've just joined this in the last five minutes and have never done anything like this before either, so please forgive me if I'm doing something idiotic, like typing this reply in completely the wrong place.
So, your poem - wow! I feel for you! This poem goes straight to the heart because it feels as though it comes straight from your heart - honestly and bravely. It reads like a plea and a prayer and makes the reader want to embrace and reassure the writer. So that is great - your poem knocks gently at the heart of the reader. The subject matter is one which I'm sure almost everybody can relate to and empathise with. I love the poem's directness and clarity. I feel as though the difficult subject is being managed by being articulated so carefully. It's freshness and honesty is most appealing.
The fact that there is a strict rhyme scheme makes me, (and others may disagree with this), feel that either you need to tighten up the rythmn a bit, or you need to loosen up on the rhyming. Rhymes don't have to come at the ends of lines. I have the feeling though that you maybe enjoy working with a form at the moment. It can be very satisfying, can't it? Like sudoku or crosswords - only the perfect word will do. So maybe you could have a go at looking at the number of syllables in each line and where the stresses of each syllable lie. This would help the flow of the poem in general.
But it's fresh, heartfelt and a brave little poem. Thank you for sharing it and I look forward to reading more!

what i found amazing is the way the poster juggled kindness with honesty. is it a great piece of insightful feedback? may be not but it's a great effort from someone whose starting out on the giving of feedback. anyone who starts out with the intent of giving this kind of feedback is the type of member we want here. well done jean....


maybe discussion isn't the place for this post but it would be good if you discuss it.

my view is this, most poets aren't good poets when they start out, nor are good critics. but both have a better chance if they post like the person above than if they simply leave a one liner stating how a poem made them pee their pants with glee

[milo]

I love to read feedback. I think it is great to see so many here focusing on giving good honest feedback. I think you become a better poet by really trying to dissect what others write and calling out and discussing what works in their poetry then taking that and including it in your own.

I read a poem the other day (can't remember which one) and it didn't really do anything for me so I passed it by. Maybe 2 hours later someone else read it and they made a call out to some effect they used (I wish I remember this part but my memory is fighting with me today). After reading it again, I liked the effect so much I wrote a poem to use the effect myself.

The point being, you really can be inspired and learn a lot by reading and critiquing what others write.

[cidermaid]

I think it does take a while to get into the "crit thing" esp. for those who are unfamiliar with using a forum or perhaps even the idea of having feedback to poetry at all. I also read Jean's first crit and thought "that's really great crit for a first effort" When I first joined I did what it appears many other newbie’s do, and went on a posting frenzy (and yes this was done hoping to receive praise...because I had not taken the time to read the site rules and guidelines or even take in the concept of how a workshop forum worked)...It took me some weeks to get the plot and to stop having a knee jerk reaction to every non complimentary word - shallow and dull person that I am!

For me the crit comments have become a really important feature of the site as a tool to learn - almost as important as actually posting my own poems. Just recently I'm spending as much time in reading not only the poems I have worked on but also all of the offered crit on other poems as I feel that I need to have a greater understanding of how words communicate different things to different readers and this in turn is giving me valuable insight that I can then apply to my own poems. Also I find that I still have days of crushing insecurity and no inspiration when it comes to reading and offering crit (does this ever go away? )...so reading the crit of others is a good way of improving your reading skills.
I suppose what I have done here is to reiterate a longer version of what Milo has said above , but the thing that I've noticed in my own writing and reading / crit giving is that I am always learning something new and (as Milo also said ), picking up new inspiration and as much of this is coming from reading and being involved with giving crit, as it is from reading the poetry itself or even writing my own poetry and receiving crit on this. (Perhaps this - the need to read being greater than a need to write, is just one of those phases that every writer goes through - I don't know). My advice to any new poet or forum participator would be, first off, try to get over yourself asap! Then sit back and chill out a bit and take a good look at every aspect of what is going on the site; I would suggest that the giving, receiving and reading of a wide range of crit is key to everything that is going on here. If you don't get into the crit - then you are missing out.

[billy]

often feedback goes one of three ways with newbs, they often burn themselves out giving it and their poetry and we don't see them for an age. or they give a moderate amount of feedback and a moderate amount of poetry, (these guys stick around a lot longer and if they do move on, often return for more fun, or they give only the amount needed in order to post a poem, often the amount given is also very very (not sure how to phrase this really) charming and has no real depth to it apart from...i liked your poem. these guys often piss off and stay pissed off because they've found a site where every piece of feedback is the same and every poet thinks they're fantastic at creating poetry.

you settled in well AJ getting that thicker skin is a must, sadly it's growth is beyond to many aspiring poets for much too long.

---

i/we are truly thankful for the guys and girls that do try and give honest feedback. though we're not perfect; i think it's what keeps us from being too nasty or too patronising.

[cidermaid]

Oooh Billy nearly said something nice...I'm going to take it as praise and frame it quick before he changes his mind.

The person I most aspire to be like when it comes to giving crit is Leanne. She can say something really harsh in such a nice way that nobody minds...in fact I suspect everyone would willingly form a queue to be insulted by Leanne. (And I bet she can see off all the boys in drinking and farting contests...although of course she would never actually do this because of course she is far to nice to ever do such a thing).

[Leanne]

Insults at 11, drinks at noon

I don't think there is anything more rewarding than offering an insight on anything -- not just poetry -- that allows someone to re-evaluate their position and learn something new. As poets, we're not exactly competing for a big pay-off so we might as well cooperate and inspire one another. If you know or notice something, no matter how small it might seem to you, share it.

See one, do one, teach one.

[billy]

if only i had a big white glove and a duelling pistol @

an analogy (for some poetry) would be walking about with the back of their skirt tucked into their knickers, or your fly open or toilet paper trailing behind you after getting off the loo. you'd want someone to tell you about it wouldn't you.

i suppose some here would just say. very artistic. well not really, tell us our chunky monster is hanging out, or that we have a loo roll following us,

[Brownlie]

Critiquing is a different skill than writing an actual poem, though if you try to write you learn to appreciate a good poem.

[billy]

giving critique honestly can help us when it comes to writing a poem, we see where that cliche is before we post the poem, we spot a lot more of what the poem should or shouldn't be before we post it. by reading critique we learn of poetic devices and where or where not to use them, both crafts are different i agree, but both are tied to the other. very often, the better you become at one, the more chance you have of becoming better at the other.

[tectak]

giving critique honestly can help us when it comes to writing a poem, we see where that cliche is before we post the poem, we spot a lot more of what the poem should or shouldn't be before we post it. by reading critique we learn of poetic devices and where or where not to use them, both crafts are different i agree, but both are tied to the other. very often, the better you become at one, the more chance you have of becoming better at the other.

I am never ungrateful for feedback. The crits on this site have all got something to say. I tend to stick to "serious" because that is where I imagine most serious poets expect to receive crit based upon something other than basic syntax, punctuation or spelling. The forum rules amplify this requirement.
I am, though, worried. I left my last poetry site because it had turned in to nothing more than a saccharin sect of sycophantic self-congratulatory saddos. It all started to go wrong when the crits, not the poets, started to use those hackneyed horrors...awesome, wow and blown away.
Oh, I realise that freedom of speech can often mean dumbing down. That's the way of freedom in any sphere. If I had one wish, though, it would be the complete and outright banning of these puerile terms from ALL the forums...to the betterment of poetry at every level. When the crit has really got nothing to say but wow, awesome or that he/she is "blown away" what hope for us all.
Best,
tectak

[Leanne]

I left my last poetry site because it had turned in to nothing more than a saccharin sect of sycophantic self-congratulatory saddos. It all started to go wrong when the crits, not the poets, started to use those hackneyed horrors...awesome, wow and blown away.

That is exactly the thing that has driven me from site to site for the past ten years or so -- despite some quite good writing on most of them, the sycophants invariably seemed to take over and even the better writers came to prefer a pat on the back to a kick up the arse. Not I -- when boot may liberally be applied, let it be so!

My vision for the site has always aligned with billy's in this, I believe. Billy wanted to create a site where poets would receive honest, constructive and useful feedback no matter what their writing ability, in order that they may improve. Nobody is beyond criticism. Being afraid to say something honest to another human being is a terrible way to live -- and being the person to whom others are afraid to speak honestly must be a miserable existence under all the sugar and fluff.

Encourage those who are learning, certainly, but do not enable mediocrity. Poets stroking one another's egos is nothing more than mutual masturbation, and just as fruitless.

[billy]

That is exactly the thing that has driven me from site to site for the past ten years or so -- despite some quite good writing on most of them, the sycophants invariably seemed to take over and even the better writers came to prefer a pat on the back to a kick up the arse. Not I -- when boot may liberally be applied, let it be so!

i know i've been on some sites just long enough to read an odd wow before exiting sharpish, so i hear what you're saying

My vision for the site has always aligned with billy's in this, I believe. Billy wanted to create a site where poets would receive honest, constructive and useful feedback no matter what their writing ability, in order that they may improve. Nobody is beyond criticism. Being afraid to say something honest to another human being is a terrible way to live -- and being the person to whom others are afraid to speak honestly must be a miserable existence under all the sugar and fluff.

yeah, that was the idea. i think what a lot of newbs think is that if they give feedback and get it wrong they'll look silly. well not to me, i'll be impressed that they're trying (eventually it'll pay off) i don't crae if someone gets it wrong i just want them to try. same with the poetry. it isn't about how good you are., it's about how much you want to improve, fro those who are really good (we do have a few of them here) it's about helping polish you into a diamond

Encourage those who are learning, certainly, but do not enable mediocrity. Poets stroking one another's egos is nothing more than mutual masturbation, and just as fruitless.

i've always stated that i'm more impressed by those new to poetry that want to learn than the fairly decent poets who think they're already good enough. i've said an odd wow, most of us have, but to get that right you have to have given honest, solid feedback on a regular level. that way we'll know that it's a genuine wow. i think with the help of other (including the members) the sites going were we hoped it wold go, it growing at a rapid rate. we probably have the least number of admin/mods than any other site of similar size and quality.

i see stuff on here everyday that amazes me, one particular persons work is often or almost always placed in the for fun forum. sometimes i'm amazed at poetry in the serious crit forum.....some of it shouldn't be there simply because the person posting in there doesn't want serious crit unless it aligns with the their own ideas about it. or they knock a poem out in 10 or twenty mins and haven't done a few edits before posting it. it's full of spelling errors (use a spell checker) or the poet would be better starting out in novice or mild.

everyone can crit, everyone can write poetry for most of the poetry population, to do either or both takes practice, the ability to learn, and a wish to genuinely improve.

---

I am never ungrateful for feedback. The crits on this site have all got something to say. I tend to stick to "serious" because that is where I imagine most serious poets expect to receive crit based upon something other than basic syntax, punctuation or spelling. The forum rules amplify this requirement.
I am, though, worried. I left my last poetry site because it had turned in to nothing more than a saccharin sect of sycophantic self-congratulatory saddos. It all started to go wrong when the crits, not the poets, started to use those hackneyed horrors...awesome, wow and blown away.
Oh, I realise that freedom of speech can often mean dumbing down. That's the way of freedom in any sphere. If I had one wish, though, it would be the complete and outright banning of these puerile terms from ALL the forums...to the betterment of poetry at every level. When the crit has really got nothing to say but wow, awesome or that he/she is "blown away" what hope for us all.
Best,
tectak

i couldn't agree more, but, and this is a big but; if you're capable of giving feedback, leave at least some in the novice section. sometimes left to their own devices new poets revert to saying as little as possible in order to post their own poetry and get the same back. they need some direction, and anyone who can post a lot in serious should really post a little in novice.