How is Free Verse different from Prose

[Todd]

This discussion started in a thread. The original poster commented that critiques on other sites focused on free verse being in error for not having proper grammar and punctuation, not being composed of complete sentences, etc. That made the poster wonder if the only difference between free verse and prose was interesting line breaks.

(liberally paraphrased)

I know there's a camp that says free verse isn't poetry. Poetry for some has to conform to traditional form. That isn't the stance I personally hold, but I understand it's out there. I'm not attempting to convert the unconverted.

So, what do we think makes free verse free verse? What makes it poetry?

[Leanne]

Aaargh! The eternal dilemma!

Part of the confusion comes from a basic misunderstanding about what free verse actually is. Many people believe that free verse MAY NOT RHYME, as if rhyme is anathema to liberty or something. Many more simply look at a free verse poem and, not having any knowledge of the skills involved and therefore being unable to identify techniques, say "that's just words thrown about anywhere, I could do that".

On the contrary: free verse is as much a form as the sonnet, really. It must contain some elements of poetic form -- the very basic unit being the poetic line. This is not just a random collection of words broken arbitrarily into bits. It is a way to utilise the page so that certain words are privileged and the reader's mind is led in a particular direction. Free verse -- in the main -- still requires use of sonic devices (alliteration, assonance, consonance and yes, even rhyme!). It is simply a departure from the constrictions of regular meter -- but to depart from something, you have to have a basic understanding of that something first.

Free verse is essentially form that comes without assembly instructions, so its final shape is up to the poet.

[Card]

I think poetry is literally music. It has a good sound, regardless of what is contained inside. Some lyrics rhyme, but some don't.

Prose, on the other hand, has no such goal. Prose is newspaper articles, Harry Potter and textbooks in school.

I don't want to sound like I think people who are hung up on this are idiots, but I don't see why this is even a question.

I mean... seriously guys, what part of that don't y'all understand?

[Todd]

I think poetry is literally music. It has a good sound, regardless of what is contained inside. Some lyrics rhyme, but some don't.

Prose, on the other hand, has no such goal. Prose is newspaper articles, Harry Potter and textbooks in school.

I don't want to sound like I think people who are hung up on this are idiots, but I don't see why this is even a question.

I mean... seriously guys, what part of that don't y'all understand?

I think most of us understand it fine Card. You were in the same thread I was. It is an issue that people do tend to get exposed to and confused by--so, I thought it was worth pulling out of that one thread and bringing over here.

Thanks for contributing.

[Leanne]

although... lyrics aren't the same thing as poetry

---

On a tangent -- you Americans tend to say "different from", whereas I'd normally say "different to"... just found that interesting, because I'm anal like that

[billy]

I mean... seriously guys, what part of that don't y'all understand?

there will be a lot on the site that wouldn't know free verse if it ate their kids. their are many who don't know the difference between free and blank verse.

whitman used some grammar in his free verse at times which gave a lot of it rhythm, and there is a school of poets that say it's just a different form. i agree that it's poetry. i also think it's harder than many who use it believe it to be. what i find funny is all the people who say you can't use meter or rhyme and that it has no rhythm. in some of the best free verse you'll see both rhythm and structure. often patterns which can exists in free verse are hard to see.
but they do exist. usually it has no consistent meter and may swap from one meter to another. the good exponents can set up and use different meters in order to create patterns. of meter within meter.

[Todd]

although... lyrics aren't the same thing as poetry

---

On a tangent -- you Americans tend to say "different from", whereas I'd normally say "different to"... just found that interesting, because I'm anal like that

Yeah but when you guys say anal what you mean is...

is...

never mind.

Tangent aside:

To me, form and free verse are both equally hard to do well. What form essentially does for you is give you a structure to hang the poem on. Hopefully, it's a structure that enhances the idea. With free verse you still impose a structure to the words. Though in this case, you're the one determining what the rules are. Your readers will determine your success.

As Leanne said, it all hinges on how you handle the poetic line.

[billy]

i just read the thread, (will get back to leave some feedback on the poem after some breakfast)

one question was why do we say "it needs grammar" when it's a free verse poem.
my reaon is this, syntax. if you write a line that has no comma mid sentence, and the read is jerky.
if adding grammar improves the piece. generally if it's a form i leave feedback as to where it shifted off a form.
this isn't so easy with free verse. in general if a poem works without gramma i don't say anything. again, it comes down to leanne's poetic sentence,

[Todd]

In general, I think you follow the conventions if they enhance impact and clarity. You abandon them when you are doing it with intent. If it doesn't work you revise.

[Card]

That was me expressing mild frustration at the misinterpretation of the English language. Not exactly a real question.

And I agree with you Billy.

It seems like so many people think that grammar exists to be hard and annoying, but it exists to make things easier. Otherwise, it would be almost --if not completely-- impossible to understand sentences.



On your tangent, that seems so funny to me. I can't imagine using "different to" and I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. Dialects, man. So confusing!

[billy]

i'm not the greatest when it comes to gramma in fact mine sucks, to me they both seem the same. here in the the phillipines they ask a question and say no after asking it, you know what i mean, no? the no means yes

[Card]

My papa does the same. He only does it to annoy us though.

[Stalker]

i just read the thread, (will get back to leave some feedback on the poem after some breakfast)

one question was why do we say "it needs grammar" when it's a free verse poem.
my reaon is this, syntax. if you write a line that has no comma mid sentence, and the read is jerky.
if adding grammar improves the piece. generally if it's a form i leave feedback as to where it shifted off a form.
this isn't so easy with free verse. in general if a poem works without gramma i don't say anything. again, it comes down to leanne's poetic sentence,

Really? - don't we need grammar so that it is actually english? not confusing? IT's our language we can do what we like, how rigidly we conform to any meter or rule grammar dictates or selecting to use only words which are currently in popular use, depends on the overall effect we would like to create, I think.

It is a poem, and it is your poem, do as you will, but don't be sad if people don't like it, whatever techniques have been adopted. There will always be nay sayers and no way to please everyone, I mean someone sits down, writes, and presumably get's paid for those things in hallmark cards, imagine performing them at a literary fest - oooh cringey, but horses for courses innit.

[Leanne]

There will always be nay sayers and no way to please everyone, I mean someone sits down, writes, and presumably get's paid for those things in hallmark cards, imagine performing them at a literary fest - oooh cringey, but horses for courses innit.

Oh lord, what a horrible (but obviously true) thought.

Grammar, like all other tools at our disposal, may be individualised according to the poet's intention -- but it's fairly important to know the rules before you break them, otherwise you just end up looking a bit ignorant. There's no point in rebelling if nobody realises you're doing it.

[billy]

i just read the thread, (will get back to leave some feedback on the poem after some breakfast)

one question was why do we say "it needs grammar" when it's a free verse poem.
my reaon is this, syntax. if you write a line that has no comma mid sentence, and the read is jerky.
if adding grammar improves the piece. generally if it's a form i leave feedback as to where it shifted off a form.
this isn't so easy with free verse. in general if a poem works without gramma i don't say anything. again, it comes down to leanne's poetic sentence,

Really? - don't we need grammar so that it is actually english? not confusing? IT's our language we can do what we like, how rigidly we conform to any meter or rule grammar dictates or selecting to use only words which are currently in popular use, depends on the overall effect we would like to create, I think.

It is a poem, and it is your poem, do as you will, but don't be sad if people don't like it, whatever techniques have been adopted. There will always be nay sayers and no way to please everyone, I mean someone sits down, writes, and presumably get's paid for those things in hallmark cards, imagine performing them at a literary fest - oooh cringey, but horses for courses innit.

i'm not sure i said it right, in a phrase, if it needs grammar it needs grammar, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

not all poems need grammar, many work by using enjambment, line ends and double line spacing to create the pauses.

[Stalker]

i just read the thread, (will get back to leave some feedback on the poem after some breakfast)

one question was why do we say "it needs grammar" when it's a free verse poem.
my reaon is this, syntax. if you write a line that has no comma mid sentence, and the read is jerky.
if adding grammar improves the piece. generally if it's a form i leave feedback as to where it shifted off a form.
this isn't so easy with free verse. in general if a poem works without gramma i don't say anything. again, it comes down to leanne's poetic sentence,

Really? - don't we need grammar so that it is actually english? not confusing? IT's our language we can do what we like, how rigidly we conform to any meter or rule grammar dictates or selecting to use only words which are currently in popular use, depends on the overall effect we would like to create, I think.

It is a poem, and it is your poem, do as you will, but don't be sad if people don't like it, whatever techniques have been adopted. There will always be nay sayers and no way to please everyone, I mean someone sits down, writes, and presumably get's paid for those things in hallmark cards, imagine performing them at a literary fest - oooh cringey, but horses for courses innit.

i'm not sure i said it right, in a phrase, if it needs grammar it needs grammar, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

not all poems need grammar, many work by using enjambment, line ends and double line spacing to create the pauses.

do you mean punctuation?

[billy]

yes

---

it usually need syntax as well or else it's a foreign poem

[Card]

I'd go ahead and say "no."

Yes, it is your poem so you have that artistic license. Poems are different than prose, so they follow different rules. But you're not thinking about what grammar really is.

You might see some really awkward sentences in poetry. In almost every case, those have to be changed. You don't think about that as grammar, because it just comes naturally to most people.

But here's another example of how important it is for everyone to know proper grammar:
"It's" = "It is."
"Its" = Possessive neuter pronoun.

These are often confused for each other. But they have two different meanings. Now, you might just say that it doesn't matter to know them.
But it does. Especially if there is another issue with the sentence, and you have to use "its/it's" to figure out the context.

It's important that there are as few confusing words like these in the English language.

Something I do, if I want to take artistic license with as good grammar as possible, is use an apostrophe. That's the reason for contractions. You use the apostrophe in place of missing letters.

'Cause grammar isn't there to so rich white assholes can sip tea while laughing at the quaint speech of those outside the country club's hedge.
It exists for the sole purpose of minimizing the confusion of a surprisingly complex language.

Most other languages have, to put it bluntly, better ways of speaking. But English simplified, and so it can have more confusing sentences than others. Real shame, to be honest. I actually kinda like Old English...

[Todd]

'Cause grammar isn't there to so rich white assholes can sip tea while laughing at the quaint speech of those outside the country club's hedge.

I really loved this comment. Somewhere maybe on a golf course in South Carolina, someone is reading this.

Hodges, dear boy, we've been doing grammar wrong. It's for the common folk too

I thought about typing it "to" for the hell of it what's an extra "o" anyway?

Nice post Card

[billy]

you also have all those other nasties like your/you're there/they're/their who's/whose and still more.