feedback

[billy]

this is mainly about the serious forum but i suppose they can all be spoken about.
a lot of new guys are giving feedback and that's really great. one problem that has arisen though, is the dilution of feedback in serious. by all means don't do a line by line if you think the poem great. but you need to leave at least half a dozen decent length lines in there as to why you like it. why it works for you.

a few lines of why you like it is okay in mild of course, but even there we'd like why you like it to be constructive.

the reason for this is as much for those who are new to posting feedback, if they see how it's done, they'll have examples to look at when giving their own.

again if you usually give solid feedback in serious, no one will be upset if now and again you leave a short piece of feedback there.

so....only serious feedback in serious feedback....

[Leanne]

Just to reiterate -- we don't measure feedback by the lines. What billy says is kind of a yardstick -- in serious critique, we need to know that you've really read and absorbed the poem as well as you can, and your feedback is well considered. If in two lines you can identify salient points and give solid critique, that's great, but it's no place for generic comments.

[arbil_poieo]

I usually stay out of Serious when giving feedback, I won't be much help there. When I do leave a comment in Serious it's mostly just me thinking out loud to kinda figure the poem out and just going through it to see what I thought was confusing or what I felt was a good stanza/line. I do give reasons, but like I said I'm not much help.

[billy]

hey ash.

that's what we like. feedback like that is great. so visit that part more

[Leanne]

It's not for the faint hearted, that's true -- but we don't expect professionalism, just a deeper reading than is really needed in most of the other places. It's where "criticism" really comes into its own, as it was first intended -- from "kritos" or "judge", not mere censure as it's been interpreted in more recent times. Serious critique requires that you really think about not only the poem itself, but also your own responses. It takes practise but it's so helpful to the writer, and we appreciate the effort it requires.

[brandontoh]

Due to the lack of technical knowledge regarding the craft, I tend to comment based on my emotional response to the poem in comparison to the desired response the poet wants. So usually it's those few lines, the lack of pauses, certain words that strike me. I don't really feel like that qualifies me to give feedback in serious.

[billy]

yes it does, it also helps you evolve and improve with feedback on both sides of the coin. if you give feedback you're better able to receive it

[cidermaid]

I've just come over all unnecessary...and suddenly feel the need to be evangelical about this forum. I didn't join in the "why do you love" discussion, so this is a sort of combined post.
The thing that I've noticed happening recently is a lack of respect and deference for the art and towards those who have walked the walk and earned the title. When I first joined, the serious critique section was a "dragons be here area" and I accidentally strayed into it and got burnt by the experience...not because the comments were rude or unjustified but because I was not ready to work at that level. Not only am I a grumpy, (nearly) old woman, but I’m also a wuss and have more insecurities that you can shake a stick at.... But (and it is a large BUT!), I was never made to feel put down, inadequate or equally to feel that my efforts were shit (even when they probably were) by the Mods. The most incredible aspect of this site is the fine line that is taken between encouragement and honest evaluation. In my opinion (and this is my sycophantic why I love bit), this line is walked with skill, humility and commitment by the mods and offers anyone who would choose to partake to join an apprentice type environment in which to learn and to expand...but here is the really great bit...the intake system allows participants to join at whatever level they have already achieved. Compared to others I have looked at, this forum is really well thought out and overseen. If you signed on for a course you might have two, perhaps three teachers and you would be subject to their individual quirks and failings of skill in isolation from any other comments. Quiet likely without realising the process you would be forced into a box of thought and style.
So here is my comment to this thread:-
The above all said, the site will only work if we can encourage and be honest in threads like this one so that everyone stays on the same page.
To those of you who think you should not be in the serious critique threads I would encourage you to spend as much time as possible reading the crits of the senior members and mods. There is so much to learn from doing this. This, and the fact that you think you are disqualified from the threads, proves that you might be nearly ready to take the plunge and post a few crits yourself.
To a minor few I would say - Show some respect.

Sorry for the length of my grumpy rant.

[brandontoh]

I've just come over all unnecessary...and suddenly feel the need to be evangelical about this forum. I didn't join in the "why do you love" discussion, so this is a sort of combined post.
The thing that I've noticed happening recently is a lack of respect and deference for the art and towards those who have walked the walk and earned the title. When I first joined, the serious critique section was a "dragons be here area" and I accidentally strayed into it and got burnt by the experience...not because the comments were rude or unjustified but because I was not ready to work at that level. Not only am I a grumpy, (nearly) old woman, but I’m also a wuss and have more insecurities that you can shake a stick at.... But (and it is a large BUT!), I was never made to feel put down, inadequate or equally to feel that my efforts were shit (even when they probably were) by the Mods. The most incredible aspect of this site is the fine line that is taken between encouragement and honest evaluation. In my opinion (and this is my sycophantic why I love bit), this line is walked with skill, humility and commitment by the mods and offers anyone who would choose to partake to join an apprentice type environment in which to learn and to expand...but here is the really great bit...the intake system allows participants to join at whatever level they have already achieved. Compared to others I have looked at, this forum is really well thought out and overseen. If you signed on for a course you might have two, perhaps three teachers and you would be subject to their individual quirks and failings of skill in isolation from any other comments. Quiet likely without realising the process you would be forced into a box of thought and style.
So here is my comment to this thread:-
The above all said, the site will only work if we can encourage and be honest in threads like this one so that everyone stays on the same page.
To those of you who think you should not be in the serious critique threads I would encourage you to spend as much time as possible reading the crits of the senior members and mods. There is so much to learn from doing this. This, and the fact that you think you are disqualified from the threads, proves that you might be nearly ready to take the plunge and post a few crits yourself.
To a minor few I would say - Show some respect.

Sorry for the length of my grumpy rant.

So it's something like 'the more I know, the more I know I don't know'?

[cidermaid]

So it's something like 'the more I know, the more I know I don't know'?

The nature of it is in there somewhere and there is (for me anyway) normally a fair amount of red face syndrome and rapid retreats, swiftly followed by creeping back.

[serge gurkski]

;-) @ cider.

I find giving feedback not at all easy. That may to a certain degree be so because I am not a native speaker. Leanne made a good point: Just reading: I like it etc, does not help much. It is also worthwhile to get back to a piece and try to find out, what it is you like about it. I will confess here, that I prefer to write. But I understand, it is important to give feedback.
Oh well ... ,-)

cheers
serge

[billy]

[ellajam]

A question about the Newly Registered Forum:

I noticed Leanne and billy leaving their comments below the poem. Is it okay to do a gentle line-by-line to point out a few places the piece might be edited?

I read the rules of the forum but if this was addressed I missed it. Thanks

[Todd]

I'd be interested for others views. Since newly registered doesn't convey an idea of proficiency, I evaluate the poem and respond where I feel is appropriate. If that's a few comments, a gentle line-by-line (as you mention), or something even more detailed.

I don't try to critique like I would in serious. Mild would probably be more my limit for the forum.

For me it's less rules more evaluate and use your best judgment.

[Jeffrey Gibson]

For me it's less rules more evaluate and use your best judgment.

Less rules???

Jeffrey

[Todd]

For me it's less rules more evaluate and use your best judgment.

Less rules???

Jeffrey

How about less about rules more about evaluating and using your best judgment. Was the clarity really that far off? My apologies.

[Jeffrey Gibson]

For me it's less rules more evaluate and use your best judgment.

Less rules???

Jeffrey

How about less about rules more about evaluating and using your best judgment. Was the clarity really that far off? My apologies.

You miss my point. The word you should have used to modify "rules" was/is "fewer", not "less".

Jeffrey

[ellajam]

For me it's less rules more evaluate and use your best judgment.

Less rules???

Jeffrey

How about less about rules more about evaluating and using your best judgment. Was the clarity really that far off? My apologies.

I heard you loud and clear, Todd, thanks for the quick response.

Regardless of that laughable "Senior Member" under my name, I'm a newbie here and am still trying to figure out what's appropriate where.

I think the tone and depth are more important than the layout of the comments, but I wanted to check.

[milo]

Less rules???

Jeffrey

How about less about rules more about evaluating and using your best judgment. Was the clarity really that far off? My apologies.

You miss my point. The word you should have used to modify "rules" was/is "fewer", not "less".

Jeffrey

This would only be correct if he was addressing the quanta (which he clearly was not). He skipped the unnecessary prep (Todd, the eternal minimalist).

[Leanne]

I think the tone and depth are more important than the layout of the comments, but I wanted to check.

Layout of the comments has never really been that important -- some people see a line-by-line as a more in-depth evaluation but really it's not. I use line-by-line when there are a few points to address in specific places and I can't be bothered with S2L1, S3L4 etc. Sounds too much like a chess match after a while . It's more about the tone. Todd's guidelines are pretty decent -- nothing above the level of mild critique and then, only if it's clear the poet is going to be able to understand what you're telling him/her as we're not in the business of frightening off novices.