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01-03-2013, 08:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2013, 09:36 AM by Leanne.)
hi guys, yes i'm saying hi to you 
we have lots of new people in the forum and that's a great thing.
but we have a problem. i'm getting a feeling that everyone who posts in the critique forum aren't posting in the right part of the forum that is commensurate with their writing skills.
it very hard to read a poem in their and point out 15 lines of cliche in a 20 line poem. it's hard to point out in a line by line what doesn't work without hurting a poets feelings when very little works. doing so is time consuming for the person giving feedback and unfair to those who are actually posting in a relevant forum on the site.
there is no shame in posting in the novice section. this part of the forum is a place to learn the basics of poetry, we won't make you great poets but here we can help you know how to use and not to use cliche, we can help you to show, not tell, what an image is and why you need them. this is where you need to start out if your poems a cliche heavy and filled with excessive wordage. (baggage)
the mild critique forum is the place many of you might be better off posting in, here you'll still get feedback on the body of your poem but you won't be overloaded with constructive feedback that is all negative.
as of to day if i see a post in serious that is cliche heavy etc, i will be honest and say so. if a poem has too many problems with it i will be honest and say so.
this is a discussion so feel free to discuss.
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I believe that as long as the poet is able to take harsh criticism in stride and able to think over the feedback properly and objectively, he/she should post in the serious critique forum. After all, some people are really earnest in improving their poetry, and detailed critique will accelerate their growth. However, I do agree that some degree of self-awareness must be present. If it's a poem that the poet feels is not up to standard, he/she should either edit it first before posting, or post it in the the mild or novice section. For those who're not self-aware, like you said billy, pointing it out to them may be the best way.
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hi brandon
thanks for the responsible reply. at present some poets post there with no thought of editing etc. and as you stated well. some haven't enough self awareness regarding their own works and at what level of writing they're at. i do think that some poets thing it's a black mark or slur against themselves personally if they post in novice or mild. (i post in those forums and see nothing wrong with the fact) once again, thanks for the reply
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I honestly don't know how any poet can be satisfied with his/her work. Every time I read my poems I find something else that's wrong with them.
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you'll be surprised how many poets think that only great pieces of literature drip from their nibs.
often poets put their work in serious crit in the hope of showcasing their piece. which is the reason for the serious crit board.
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Serious critique is for serious critique. Fairly self explanatory. It isn't for us to rewrite poems for people who have no intention of workshopping. It takes a lot of time and effort. Nobody should expect anyone else to do a close reading of their poem and then give nothing but praise in return. Nor is serious critique a licence to rip the crap out of people. If you post in serious critique, expect to get what it says on the tin. We are not teaching a course here, we are poets reading poems and sharing knowledge, for free, on the Internet.
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The serious critique section is again being bombarded by poems that really don't belong there. Serious Critique is not a place to dump poems that are straight from your head, unedited and not even proof read, that you have no intention of revising. It is not a forum for us to correct spelling and grammar or excise line upon line of hackneyed phrase. When you post in Serious Critique, it is expected that you will have enough technical ability to be able to use feedback judiciously rather than just expecting commenters to help you rewrite your poem. A proper critique in this forum takes upwards of half an hour. It is selfish, unreasonable and unacceptable to expect commenters to take more time on your poem than you did yourself.
To that end, moderators have been instructed to relocate posts out of the Serious Critique forum at their own discretion and place them in one of the more suitable forums. Please do not take this to mean that your poem isn't welcome. Rather, use it as a gentle reminder that poetry is a craft and while we are a workshop, Serious Critique is at the upper end of the assembly line, so to speak. By the time your poem reaches that level it should have already had plenty of work done on it by you, the craftsman. If you then wish to have your poem re-entered in Serious Critique, please revise it and then make the request.
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I am definitely novice when it comes to poetry. The reason I posted my first poem in the Serious Critique forum as opposed to the Novice forum wasn't because of stature.. it was because I wanted to get to the nitty gritty. An ego being torn down is a beautiful thing if the critique is useful, especially if the ego is snuffing out improvement.
I have more understanding for the level of self awareness that needs to be reached before posting - I mean I posted a poem with a spelling error, grammatical issues, etc. These are issues many serious poets don't have time for I'm certain. Thankfully/Luckily a senior member had the patience for my errors, they gave me an honest critique and now I can start from scratch/work on my self awareness and truly work up to posting.
I found this thread useful and I understand the site a bit more now, thank you!
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And your response to critique was appreciated -- that's the kind of development we need more of. Posting in Mild Critique won't mean you don't get decent feedback, though. Critiques there will still be solid, just not as detailed as in Serious. Threads can always be moved from Mild to Serious once a poet is satisfied that the poem is fairly well edited, and use Serious to finish it off.
Anyone who wants their poem moved to a different forum need only PM a moderator -- the forum team contact details are listed here and you can find out more about us here.
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01-20-2013, 09:17 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2013, 09:19 AM by billy.)
(01-20-2013, 07:59 AM)Yelleryella123 Wrote: I am definitely novice when it comes to poetry. The reason I posted my first poem in the Serious Critique forum as opposed to the Novice forum wasn't because of stature.. it was because I wanted to get to the nitty gritty. An ego being torn down is a beautiful thing if the critique is useful, especially if the ego is snuffing out improvement.
I have more understanding for the level of self awareness that needs to be reached before posting - I mean I posted a poem with a spelling error, grammatical issues, etc. These are issues many serious poets don't have time for I'm certain. Thankfully/Luckily a senior member had the patience for my errors, they gave me an honest critique and now I can start from scratch/work on my self awareness and truly work up to posting.
I found this thread useful and I understand the site a bit more now, thank you! were not on about an odd spelling or grammar mistake, or any other problem, in fact that's idea, we all help the poet spot stuff and then give a reason or suggestion on how to make it better. these are the very issues serious poets have time for. what we don't have time for is reading a poem from a poet who has no idea what cliche is. no idea what to do with any information they receive there. no intention of using feedback in a constructive way, even if it's valid. in mild we can still give in depth replies bit in a more general manner and even more so in novice where poets can ask questions and interact in a much more basic level.
one last point, every critique or piece of feedback given to a poem as mentioned above means a good worthy poet and poem goes unanswered, a poem that could be yours or mine. specially on a large site such as this.
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That last point is an excellent one, billy. Any poem you consider worth posting should also be worth you spending time improving it, rather than posting several poems per week and expecting others to keep up. Ideally I'd like to see a ratio of somewhere around 5 pieces of considered feedback to every one poem posted. We can't enforce it but we would greatly appreciate people trying to regulate their own posting habits and help make the site better for everyone.
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also, let's remember this is in the discussion threads so jump in and bitch about it or ask about something. if you have a pint of view; share it and see what others think.
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(01-20-2013, 10:25 AM)billy Wrote: also, let's remember this is in the discussion threads so jump in and bitch about it or ask about something. if you have a pint of view; share it and see what others think.
Yeah, that's true. The goal of any change is to make the experience better. Discussion is heathy. It gives us all more to consider. So, if you think the decision is right or wrong speak up, and like always say why.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
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personally I would very rarely post against a poem in which I see little or no merit - I would just leave it. I notice that I am better at articulating what I don't like than what I do - so if I don't like much - well you see...
partcularly when what I don't enjoy are stylistic elements that are truly personal - myself, I don't really enjoy rhyming poetry - I can almost never differentiate between it and Pam Ayres! I could spend the whole day saying, it rhymes and I don't get it. But presumably those who do that know they are doing that and do it on purpose.
Actually that is not entirely true - I like the poetry of Betjeman, and that rhymes - remember Myfanwy at Oxford? ahhhh.
Anyway clearly got too much time today - What i think is the hardest thing about crit, is when you know something is really fab and brilliant and all you can say is "I-LOVE-IT"
I guess that is not too helpful for the writer.
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Hey, don't knock Pam Ayres! 
A lot of people say they don't like rhyme. I think a lot of that has to do with the horrible things people tend to do with it these days. We're on a mission to fix that and a whole host of other crimes against poetry. Not that we're perfect, of course -- but we admit that.
I've read poems that have just blown me away and the "I love it" response is tempting. I always try to back away from strong emotional responses after the first couple of readings though, and look at a poem as objectively as possible to figure out why I love it. Sometimes it's very hard to explain but there's always something that can be identified. Unfortunately, the disingenuous comment whores who praise wantonly to attract reciprocal niceties have ruined the simple compliment for the rest of us. If someone tells me they like my poem, it rather takes the shine off the compliment when I see they've said the same thing to a dozen or more other people.
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disingenuous-comment-whores
haha! I love that
I just went on Pams Site - actually it is not bad. sorry Pam.
tum de tum - 2 hours to go then sunny china - Yippee... hello to chaos and confusion and goodbye to cheese. again sighs.
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01-21-2013, 01:00 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013, 01:17 PM by Leanne.)
You can get cheese in China... but I wouldn't recommend trying to eat it
I might actually make a ruling that nobody's first post may be in the Serious Critique forum -- thoughts?
I don't mean that people have to post poems in some other forum first, I mean that before you post in Serious Critique you should have either posted a poem in another forum or done a few critiques, so we can tell if we're just being used as a dumping ground or not. I don't think it's fair for members to waste time on people who don't return.
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it is not cheese - it is 'stuff' that comes in a package vaguely familiar to that which might - in more cheesey places - contain actual cheese.
still wont do me any harm I suppose - espscially if I don't dwell on it.
ahh china - sighs
(01-21-2013, 01:00 PM)Leanne Wrote: You can get cheese in China... but I wouldn't recommend trying to eat it
I might actually make a ruling that nobody's first post may be in the Serious Critique forum -- thoughts?
I don't mean that people have to post poems in some other forum first, I mean that before you post in Serious Critique you should have either posted a poem in another forum or done a few critiques, so we can tell if we're just being used as a dumping ground or not. I don't think it's fair for members to waste time on people who don't return.
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Is there some way to set up the joining process so that they have to agree to not post in serious critique unless they want their poem to be observed piecemeal. Like, one of those things where you have to type something in, instead of checking a box. Maybe that'll raise awareness?
Or hell, lock it the same way you've locked the Pig's Arse. That'll keep out the riff-raff.
Seriously though, it may be wise to take measures against this.
Won't be seeing you through the field of tears I left behind
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maybe, but the very very last thing we want here is a them and us mentality, while it's okay for the sewer and pig's arse (they're the shitholes of the site) i'm not so sure about critique forums. i'm for just trusting the mods not to be fair in their discernment. if you get a poem moved to another forum, tough shit 
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