What for you are the six most important things one should learn in order to be a better poet. (not that any of us are ) If you're going to mention poetic devices, please name them singularly; each one will go toward the six choices you make.

Had to think about this for a while So, the countdown:

6. Don't just disregard someone's feedback because it seems stupid or annoying at the time. Leave it alone, but always keep it to remind you that not everyone sees your poems the way you do. (Unless it's a cut-and-paste job, in which case you should hunt them down for violence whenever possible)

5. Don't throw away anything you've written. Even if you doubt it at the time, the day might come when you regret it.

4. Don't assume that because someone doesn't know as much as you do, they're stupid and not worth your time. This applies in more than just poetry, obviously -- but as a writer, you have to accept that people won't always have the same knowledge as you do. That doesn't mean you should dumb it down, but you shouldn't make it impossible for them to get enough of a grip to smarten themselves up.

3. Inspiration can be found anywhere. Make a habit of finding out as much as you can about everything you're offered, and try to get different viewpoints.

2. Learn to read poetry properly. Good poetry has more than one layer and it's probably smart not to always take things at face value.

1. However good you think you are, you're not.

Leanne, that is very sound stuff. Your first and last points made me think a little.

I have been struck by the degree to which I have been misunderstood, when I have thought that what I have written was as plain as day. I do not mean that people have taken things badly; I mean that sometimes I have simply given the wrong idea, even if people think -or say they think - it is wonderful. A glaring example was one which I did regarding a touching affair of the heart, and readers thought I was describing a woman on the game! When I re-read, it became obvious -- I knew what was in my head -- I simply had failed to consign it to paper.

Your other point (1), about reading and layers triggered my usual Philistine gut-reaction, but finessed slightly. My thought was this. If one begins with the proposition that poems should be written at least as if to be spoken and heard, how many people, ever, have possessed sufficiently quick minds to pick up layers at the speed of the spoken word, even assuming that that spoken word is a clear as a bell? It seems to me that it would require the poetic human equivalent to Big Blue. Of course, I accept that there are those who live on a higher plane.....

(06-17-2011, 05:55 AM)abu nuwas Wrote:  Your other point (1), about reading and layers triggered my usual Philistine gut-reaction, but finessed slightly. My thought was this. If one begins with the proposition that poems should be written at least as if to be spoken and heard, how many people, ever, have possessed sufficiently quick minds to pick up layers at the speed of the spoken word, even assuming that that spoken word is a clear as a bell? It seems to me that it would require the poetic human equivalent to Big Blue. Of course, I accept that there are those who live on a higher plane.....

Ah, written to be spoken and heard, yes -- but why only the once? And certainly never ONLY to be spoken and heard, but spoken, heard, read, remembered, loved... and speaking a poem gives it an extra layer also, that of the speaker's emotive response through tone and body language (if it's seen as well). Poems like Coleridge's Kubla Khan are beautiful to the ear, but present many layers of meaning when read silently to oneself -- it's the sound that fixes it in the mind for later ponderings.

That is ideal - to read, to hear, to read again, and perhaps memorise, though that would be a minor miracle for me now, beyond the odd telling phrase. However, I should not have the arrogance to expect that that would be the future itinerary for anything I might write!

Still related to writing, I have become interested in the effect of poems spoken with very great care putting due weight on each syllable, speaking very clearly and slightly slowly. The effect on stress is fascinating. It does not switch, but it does fade, almost to the point where you could imagine English using the classical/French system of going by length. It means that when writing, one is entitled to have in mind how a thing should sound. I suppose one could even use some sort of notation, like Pinter's beat marks ('), which made his name, by mistake. (He put them to help the actors breathing, but the actors thought it was a little pause, and so Pinteresque pauses were born!)

Here are six that have helped me:

1. Read a lot of poetry and not just for enjoyment. Read critically. Ask yourself why an image or a line break worked. Familiarize yourself with what's been done and train yourself to recognize why you like something.

2. Try not to get locked into abstractions (pain, fear, love even, etc). Using those words is like a vague sort of shorthand. You think you're conveying something, but you're actually not being clear enough. Try to use an image or a picture to display what you're trying to convey emotionally. Finding the right image matters.

3. Do everything on purpose. It's okay to get in a writing mood and free write but when you settle on the poem make your words count. Consider everything. It's okay to find a better phrase or way to do it later, but don't get lazy with your choices--be deliberate.

4. It's been said that writing is rewriting. Always look back at your older work. You'll find that something you loved years ago now irritates you (don't get down on yourself--it means you've gotten better). When possible write a new draft.

5. Don't feel that you have to write on command. You'll have active periods and dry periods. If you find yourself being frustrated with a piece put it down for awhile. It doesn't mean you can't write or you've lost it. Rest, listen to some music, take a walk.

6. Don't get addicted to praise. It's okay to feel proud of something good you've written. Give yourself a few minutes to be happy with it and then look at the piece critically: Is it the best you can do write now? Always push yourself to get better--praise is more dangerous than harsh criticism. Praise will dull you to your work (if it's deserved great, but you will always eventually see something you could make stronger).

I could talk about making nouns and verbs your friends and running from adjectives or adverbs. Or I could say read your work out loud and you will hear where it flows and where it slips...but I think this is enough for now.

I like adjectives and adverbs ... but everything in moderation is the key. These are great points, Todd, I'd agree with all of them and especially feel compelled to restate this:

praise is more dangerous than harsh criticism

That doesn't mean don't praise, it means don't praise vacuously or be a sycophant. "This is good" is pointless -- "this is good because" is constructive.

(06-17-2011, 05:55 AM)abu nuwas Wrote:  Leanne, that is very sound stuff. Your first and last points made me think a little.

I have been struck by the degree to which I have been misunderstood, when I have thought that what I have written was as plain as day. I do not mean that people have taken things badly; I mean that sometimes I have simply given the wrong idea, even if people think -or say they think - it is wonderful. A glaring example was one which I did regarding a touching affair of the heart, and readers thought I was describing a woman on the game! When I re-read, it became obvious -- I knew what was in my head -- I simply had failed to consign it to paper.

i think most people have done or do the same thing. on both sides. i've often read a poem and after giving my feedback get told, it wasn't about that but about this, and it all becomes crystal clear.

Quote:Your other point (1), about reading and layers triggered my usual Philistine gut-reaction, but finessed slightly. My thought was this. If one begins with the proposition that poems should be written at least as if to be spoken and heard, how many people, ever, have possessed sufficiently quick minds to pick up layers at the speed of the spoken word, even assuming that that spoken word is a clear as a bell? It seems to me that it would require the poetic human equivalent to Big Blue. Of course, I accept that there are those who live on a higher plane.....

personally i think it's possible and not only possible but instinctive. i see inuendo in everything (almost) while i take what i hear at face value i often think, they're actually saying... one of the things about a poet reading their own work is the added bonus of body language. comedians use it a lot for emphasis, usually it's use is slapsticky and way over the top. normal people are more subtle but they use it, the intonation of the voice, a bent knee, a smile, often it's one of the reason the audience laugh in unison, most because something was funny but because they were queued to. again they're usually queued to at the point of double meaning. jmo

some good points off people so far.

i'm feeling a little out of my depth and wondering why i asked the question now, but here goes anyway; (in no particular order)

1, drop any pretensions has to how good or bad you are and always try and improve.

2, always listen to critique and feedback, it's the poets best friend, if three quarters of the replies say something in particular doesn't work, the odds are it doesn't work. never be too obstinate that you put yourself above sound criticism or feedback. making sure that good, bad or mediocre, you accept it graciously. people have spent time giving it.

3, feedback and critique again, this time it's about giving it. try and be honest and kind, giving honest feedback will actually help yu improve as a poet because you'll learn to see in your poetry what you see as failings in other poets work. you'll come to know what to spot when you do an edit. of course a spot of ego will make you pass over things but you will improve.

4, learn the crafting of poetry. since the short period leanne has been here i'v learnt something i didn't know, not much i know but i found something out which will help me when and if i want to write a certain form. learn some basic poetic devices, read about how to write it. while it is an expressive art form, it tends to work well within it's rules. and better outside it's rules if they have been learned, then discarded.

5, immersion, something i've been guilty of not doing enough of till now. Read poetry, good or bad poetry, interact with others as we're doing in this thread, never mind the arty fart stuff. look for the nuts and bolts. google is a great tool. get an idea from someone and discover the way it works. iambic pentameter...to me (i thought i knew what it was) sounded like some kind of spell. after being told about it i tried to work out it's nuts and bolts. i can't believe i managed to do a poem with them (not necessarily a good one) and get the iambs right. that was because of others helping and giving advise which i could use to find the answers i wanted. immersion isn't just about joining the back slapping poetry group where all you get are smiles and cooing; which is okay if all you want from poetry is interaction with people of a like mind and no intent or need to improve.

6, writing and editing: (they're the same thing) as of late i haven't had enough time and so i haven't written as much as i'd have liked, though i do try and write at least a couple a week. edit, edit , edit, workshop it, and edit it again. if you write and workshop your poetry, are able to leave your ego in the draw and don't mind doing a strong edit now and again i guarantee that six moths from now your poetry skills and you as a poet will have grown.

Write what you know. Research what you don't.

Write for the reader.

Develop your own style.

Be comfortable in your skin.

Grow thicker skin.

re-write re-write re-write

Find a suitable audience. He He, that's a tuffy

Yep, the last one's the hardest

Great tips, David, I agree with every one of them.

I'd be interested to see what tips some of our newer members can add to this. Even if you're quite new to poetry, I'm sure you've picked a few things up that are worth passing on

i'm not going to say that these are THE six things to know; rather, just some things I have learned that I wish others had told me (or perhaps they have and I found them valuable).

1. Do not rush. When every word is valuable, you need to find the right expression. I find that if I even have the tiniest of doubts of a way I've worded something, I usually wait a day, a week, a month...(sometimes longer, unfortunately) as long as it takes for the 'best' words to come. Once the proper phrase, image, or single word arrives, everything clicks. I wish I could express that more tangibly, but it really is a feeling I experience a lot and I give all the credit to patience. Settling is an enemy, as in many areas of life.


2. Read more. You'll notice the difference. If you really dislike it, find someone whose style resonates with you or whose style you admire. It will work its way into your own writing, regardless of how conscious you are of it.

3. Take what you like. In words given attributed to T.S. Eliot, a good poet copies, a great poet steals. If something really grabs you from a poem, sometimes it will work best to use it again for your own purposes, whether it consists of an image, a line, a structure...etc. It can be as obvious as Billy Collins in his theft of Ferlinghetti in "The Trouble with Poetry," (where he blatantly admits taking an image of light from a lighthouse) or as subtle as you prefer.

4. Keep grounded. If things get too abstract, you may make your reader confused. A good way to stay somewhat tangible is through imagery. I'm slightly biased though in this regard--personally, I have a hard time with overly abstract pieces.

5. find people who write better than you (in your opinion). Those are the people who really opened up my eyes so much.

6. don't expect to enjoy yourself (all the time). many times, nothing makes me sadder or more disappointed than reading what I've written, whether recently or in the past.

All of those things made me nod my head, but especially number 1. Sometimes a single word, or even a tiny change of line break or punctuation, can turn a poem around completely. As for "settling is an enemy" -- big AMEN.

i prefer to rush the write and spend time on the 1st edit.

never write poetry after having sex. or just before having sex.
never try to write a poem in a noisy room
don't expect to write a great poem, instead try to write a great poem.
a poem is seldom perfect.

I rarely rush to write it down, but that's just because I do most of my composing in my head... but I have to repeat it over and over again to keep it at the front of my mind, which does cause some consternation in the supermarket queues.

It is not exactly a top tip, but I do find, sometimes, that walking, and walking at different paces, is good for producing some sort of rhythm, or meter. I seem to recall that Wordworth was also a walker, so now you know my secret.....

I have endless scraps of paper, as there seems to be a sort of Nuwases Law that notebooks get mislaid at a greater rate than it is possible to purchase them. If I kick off with an idea or two--and it's true they come in spurts -- then I like to get that down, and likewise what I think will be great lines. It is a fact, though, that however great the line, it has every chance of leading on to absolute drivel -- and that is where I admire all you editors, since I seem to be subject to another Law, which says that the better the first line, the worse the nonsense it will bring forth in its train.

I seem to be unusually humble this eve. Hmmm

i keep saying i carry pen and paper on my person for when i think of something but i never do.
it doesn't matter how much i repeat something, i always forget it when i come to write it down

when i say i rush it down, i mean the backbone of the thing, if i;m lucky i can get something down pretty quick. i then spend a fair bit of time redoing it (major, major edit) even then, it doesn't compare to some of the quality you lot put on the boards. that said i'm not one to judge my stuff against other peoples. i tend or try and judge it on things i write 6 or 12 moths ago. if it's improved any, then i feel okay with it.

so that would bring up one for me

1) judge your present work with your past work in order to show yourself that you are improving. (at least 6 to 12 months intervals)

- Use blank unlined paper with pencil: Lines on your page are forced conformity, colours distract and ink has permanence. All three disrupt the flow of creativity.

- Conditioning: Set your mood by daydreaming your poem, imagine everything and explore any possible twists and scenario's. Use music, find a song you like with a similar theme, listen to the song over and over until you feel you are there experiencing it and then start writing.

- Over-tiredness, I am finding that thinking is clearer the longer I am awake, I like to be awake at least 24 hours before writing, jacked up on coffee of course, but for some, alcohol might be easier.

Here's a new one I've started to understand:

Treat poetry like you would cooking. If you add too many ingredients it comes off confusing and overdone. Trust your imagery keep the flourshes to just what is needed.

I don't know if that makes sense.