(02-10-2022, 02:14 PM)busker Wrote:  

(02-10-2022, 01:30 PM)Xlateralus Wrote:  

(02-10-2022, 12:45 PM)busker Wrote:  I wasn’t referring to gravity as a concept, friend.
Cavendish’s experiment that determines the value of G to be ~6x10^-11 Nm2/kg2 is not something that you can just rig up on a Sunday. Have you tried it?

Details. We can discuss whether or not god exists without having to know the length of his pubic hair, don’t you think?

What are you on about?
The point was that we take many things on faith simply because it is too tiring, even impossible, to live otherwise. Such as assuming that the work done by scientists in measuring G was correct.
Sitting on the fence BECAUSE you don’t have perfect information is therefore a bogus position to take because you will never have perfect information about most things in life.

Not really. Having an open mind is the key to learning.

busker,

Tell me something. Does Newton’s belief in god make it true that god exists? Does his belief in god make god’s existence more likely? If 100% of all scientists today believed in god’s existence, does that make it true that god exists? If 100% of all scientists today believed in the existence of god, does that make it more likely that god exists?

And it's not ambivalence and no, you can’t have the similar sentiment toward “pretty much anything”, unless you’re arguing for solipsism. Because unlike god(s), a lot of things that fall under “pretty much anything” have evidence to support its existence.

You have a very warped understanding of the word “faith”. Why don’t you define it. And define “belief” while you’re at it. You seem to be misusing both words as well as equivocating the two.

And if the senses are not infallible, then you cannot trust the conclusion that they are not infallible.

My mind accepts science as objective, and God as subjective, and both as true.

Quote:Not really. Having an open mind is the key to learning.

Missing the point again.
An open mind is compatible with a default hypothesis.

Is the case closed when the questions answered? A closed mind isn't wrong, but an open mind isn't really right.

Yes, but what about the Jews?

---

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to be pithy. Answering in kind at this point is dull, but not answering at all leaves some of my "questions" unanswered. "Questions" as in who are you, because while I find it frustrating when some Christians boil down unbelief to some sort of psychological or sociological "problem", in this case, taking literalists too literally, especially when they're not very literal at all -- going back to the original poem, it doesn't even address faith at all, unless one goes under the mistaken assumption that literalists are the be-all and-all of Western religious discourse -- seems like something to diagnose, rather than question.

So I ask again: what about the Jews? xD

(02-12-2022, 05:34 AM)Torkelburger Wrote:  busker,

Tell me something.  Does Newton’s belief in god make it true that god exists?  Does his belief in god make god’s existence more likely?  If 100% of all scientists today believed in god’s existence, does that make it true that god exists?  If 100% of all scientists today believed in the existence of god, does that make it more likely that god exists?

And it's not ambivalence and no, you can’t have the similar sentiment toward “pretty much anything”, unless you’re arguing for solipsism.  Because unlike god(s), a lot of things that fall under “pretty much anything” have evidence to support its existence.

You have a very warped understanding of the word “faith”.  Why don’t you define it.  And define “belief” while you’re at it.  You seem to be misusing both words as well as equivocating the two.

And if the senses are not infallible, then you cannot trust the conclusion that they are not infallible.

Newton believing anything doesn’t make it true.
Again, go back to my post and read what I said, which was that the causal relationship you assumed between Newton’s lack of our present day knowledge and his belief in god, was bogus.

“Evidence”? Any evidence we have for the “Big Bang” theory is incomplete and hugely circumstantial. Which is why Narlikar even to this day thinks that the steady state theory has legs. Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose in 1964 “proved” that running the film of time backwards does lead to a singularity, but any number of new observations tomorrow may lead to an adjustment in that conclusion.
The presence of a universal background radiation doesn’t necessarily mean that there was a Big Bang. The universe may have been oscillating for all time.

In the inevitable absence of certainty, most people choose to have a model to explain the world. Not choosing to have a model is no great act of scientific bravery. If anything, it shows the subject to be lacking in creativity. Wegener believed in continental drift because it was an elegant explanation, even though its mechanism was understood much after his death. Einstein went to the grave believing in a universal theory of physics that would unify quantum mechanics and GR.

What is the distinction between faith and belief? Faith is the assumption that a belief is true at a given level of evidence (which may vary from 0 to 99.99999%). That’s how I see it. The rest is semantics.

Just to be clear, if you’re coming after me with some hocus pocus faith in Jesus argument aired on Alabama TV, don’t. I’m not American.

From this thread I have learned that I am what can be called an “agnostic theist”, and I am fine with that. Still, I don’t expect that I’ll be wearing a tee shirt anytime soon proclaiming it.

As Aristotle pointed out so long ago, “the whole is more than the sum of its parts.”  I base my belief in God on that, while not subscribing to any religious dogma or doctrine.  I do not argue that belief, it is simply my belief.

Science will forever pursue knowledge of the parts, knowing that most answers will present further questions. As science progresses, it can even pull religions forward, with many now accepting at least part of the science of evolution, for example.

I can stand among a congregation and feel the power of everyone saying the Lord’s Prayer in unison.  I can stand among a group of people singing “we all live in a yellow submarine” and feel that same power. 

I know atheists who feel the glory of the world around them every bit as powerfully as my religious friends do.  I have seen atheists and folks from various faith traditions all work together to help neighbors in need.

I am old enough now to appreciate, and be comfortable with, anyone willing to engage his or her fellow humans with respect, empathy, and compassion.    

With a nod to ee cummings:

'since feeling is first
who pays any attention
to the syntax of things
will never wholly kiss you;
wholly to be a fool
while Spring is in the world
my blood approves,
and kisses are better fate
than wisdom
lady i swear by all flowers. Don't cry
- the best gesture of my brain is less than
your eyelids' flutter which says
we are for each other: then
laugh, leaning back in my arms
for life's not a paragraph
And death i think is no parenthesis'

ee cummings, first published by Boni and Liveright, 1926

Mark, you're taking the poet way out.

My position is this: Death is the end.
And death is ok.
No need for god, no need for afterlife.
Death is it.
There is nothing. There is nothing. Die, death is nothing.
All the people you love are here, and when they die, they are nothing.

I have no fear of death. No Absolute. There is nothing.
And if there is something, I'll enjoy that play.

Once you accept that there is nothing. Accept that death ends you, me, all the people we ever care about, that's it.

Love while you can.


Play.

Oh, I forgot to say, things are freer and more enjoyable once you accept no Absolute other than death.

For me, there is no difference, except linguistically between physical and mental, concrete and abstract.

Everything is, if anything is, physical.

I am awfully bad at math. Or was. I'm getting better at it through gematria. Jews, to answer Rivernotch's post, and their damned greek and hebrew!!!!

I used to read books on physics. I used to read books on psychology. I find both subjects similar.
They are the same, as understanding the nature of universe is an understanding of your mind. And human minds in common. And more. Or/And. 

I spend a lot of time concentrating on poetry and pretty girls. Whenever I am alone and heartbroke, I put my mind to physics. Physics only matters as first aid. For me, anyway.

The whole world is in me. I don't need to read books.

I say there is nothing after death. And I communicate with ghosts.

Yep, I'll take the poet's way out. If I'm lucky.

I believe that our brains are wired to anticipate future events, and that we tend to project survival into afterlife scenarios.

Everyone must do their own dying, and I'm all for whatever brings comfort to that end.  I do hope that folks have someone with them when that time comes, me included. 

I've had several near death experiences, and by that I mean I have been very near loved ones at their moment of death. I found death to be as holy an experience as watching the birth of my son.  Those events have given me an appreciation for life. At both ends.

You might not be able to tell from my poems, but I'm paying close attention to my words.

anticipate and project are powerful words.

All words are spells.

---

I have a statue of Jesus and the Heath Ledger Joker in my room.
It's a black Jesus. Jesus in blackface and Joker got white make-up.

Jesus & The Joker.
Jesus keeps me conscientious. My moral code. The Joker is my attitude.
Not afraid of death. Death is fine. Oblivion. Fear and Love are affects.

My nervous system has this recording that makes me assume morality. I stick with it. I choose to stick with it. Other recordings it has, like fear of pain and death, I ignore. Ignorance with a capitol I.

Ignorance, Mystery and Wonder.

---

If someone tells me I'm very intelligent, I agree, if someone tells me I'm stupid, I agree.

I'm proud. I'm proud of everything I am.

If I need to pull poetry out of my ass I do. If I need to pull physics or cooking or compassion out of my ass, I do.

For me there is no distinction, knowing, not knowing. So what?

---

I like to write. I like to play symbols on paper, air, screen.
I like the sound of my voice. And the sound of others' voices.
I like the smell of my farts.
I like the smell of beautiful women.
I liked the smell of the sweaty men I used to wrestle.

There is so much to like.

Some people like being angry. Some people like being right.

I like it all.

A true story:

In her last two weeks, as my sister was dying of cancer, she would almost daily claim that “her time” would come at 9:28pm, and asked us to promise that we’d be there for her, so that she wouldn’t die alone (even though nurses were always on duty).  I had such faith in my sister that I made sure I was at the hospital, by her bedside, every night well before 9pm, just in case she was off by a couple minutes. 

On the night she died, my brother, and three other family members were with her. I was not really surprised when she passed at 9:28pm.  The unit nurse, also knowing of my sister’s prediction, was so startled that she insisted that the actual time of death was closer to 9:25. 

I’m glad that we had faith in my sister. In this case, there was evidence to back up that faith, yet I have no idea what that evidence means, or how it is that she could've known.

Many years later I was with my mom on the night she died, along with my son, and wife. When I could no longer find a pulse I asked my son what time it was.  When he said 9:28, I was stunned.  Later, when I told him the story of my sister he just shrugged and proclaimed it a coincidence.  While I agreed that it was a coincidence, I felt it was a pretty extraordinary one.  I must admit that I looked toward “heaven” and asked, “are you trying to tell me something?” I've never received an answer, nor do I expect one. 

To be honest, if these events had not involved witnesses other than me I would question whether they actually happened in the way that they did.

I've had such experiences, too.
Sometimes they only happen if you believe in God. Sometimes they happen without believing in anything.

Believing in things gives a directional force to things.

People I love who are dead, I play with spirits. They talk to me. You realize how you don't know anything.
If my dead friends talk to me, is it them? If God talks to me, is it God? Am I me, right now?
I don't know. You don't know. Nothing and nobody knows.

Science and Religion are useful. Antiscience and antreligion are useful.

Stupidity got me out of some jams that intelligence got me into.

In magick, you use gods as directional force. A god is something you can focus on, and put your all in.

Me, I focus on the woman I love. I'm a Romantic romantic. I focus on her. She's what gets my poems written. God is a minor figure.

I would like, Mark, for you to talk about synchronicities. They happen all the time. I talk about them all the time.



We can get rid of assumptions about timeandspace, we can use those assumptions, too.

We use foundations and frameworks to understand in context.
It's fun.
Really, there are no contexts.
You come into context to experience.

I love me family. I love the girl I love.
I can do all that loving and caring in a social context, put it in my "heart". And live a stressfree godfree lovefree worryfree life. Physics- Psychologyfree. And grab physics, folklore. religion, magic, emotion.

My nervous system is stress free. My love is magic in my Imagination. Real. Real and Gladness and Joy. 


Sissy stuff.

(02-14-2022, 07:37 AM)rowens Wrote:  I would like, Mark, for you to talk about synchronicities. 

OK rowens, interesting coincidences and a touch of synchronicity:

Many years after my mom died, I was with my wife at the hospital, at the bedside of her uncle when he died. After he passed, the patient advocate came into the room to speak with us. She just happened to be a member of the same church where my wife’s uncle was a member.

She called the pastor, and we then met with him.  While talking with him we discovered that the pastor’s wife just happened to work at the same place where my wife and I had met.  Only, she worked there many years after we had moved on.

Since I was now retired, I decided to attend some services at that church.  I even participated in some bible study, since I was very rusty, having been away from church for many decades. We discussed the verse where Jesus decides to help some blind men “see”.  He asks them, “do you believe that I am able to do this?” 

That verse just happened to be from Matthew 9:28.  I immediately remembered the instances of 9:28 with my mom and sister.  Once again, I looked to “heaven” and asked, “Are you trying to tell me something?”  Maybe the answer is right in front of me, and I’m just too “blind”, too skeptical, to see it.

Sceptical of what?

(02-15-2022, 04:29 AM)rowens Wrote:  Sceptical of what?

Note that I said too skeptical. I always question things, and that's the reason I got kicked out of Catholic school by the time I was 12.

I only accept things that can be proven to me in objective reality.  Was this whole 9:28 business prodding me toward a belief in a personal God?  I sorta wish I could accept that it was, but I just can't get my mind to embrace that conclusion. 

I can be hooked by the subjective lure of "magical thinking", and a lot of it occurs when I'm playing music. Likewise when I'm out and about on a beautiful day, just fishing. Or working on a poem.  Or comtemplating the personal meaning of things like "9:28".  The highly subjective inner workings of my mind do add color to the world for me. 

All of that said, I am fascinated by, and really do enjoy interesting coincidences.

I spend most of my time alone. It takes a week or two for contextual frameworks to fade. If I spend a lot of time around people of certain cultural belief patterns, I find my nervous system responding to the world more and more from that perspective.

I find myself comfortable around all kinds of people, except those who seem intent upon dragging others down. I am somehow blessed with an ability to get along with just about anybody.

I’m usually more comfortable in small groups, though. The dynamic of large groups gets too overwhelming. I particularly avoid scenarios like crowded shopping malls that can trigger a panic response in me.

There is the me who is currently experiencing the dreadful hangxiety, who is at this moment so full of shame and self-loathing that he wishes he was dead. But that's not the me typing this. I'm talking over that me who's in anguish. That me is real, it's experiencing real feelings, but I don't identify with it.
I actually feel bad for him. I know that once this condition wears off, he won't exist. His pain and his sorrow and his shame and his confusion will end with him.
He is like a hurt child or a wounded animal who his currently in my care.
I gave him some candy and some milk, and he's feeling a little better.
The me who is typing this only feels a bit silly. Otherwise, what is he? This me?

---

I feel comfortable in crowds. I'm always at my best the more chaos is going on. That's when I'm in my element.