SECOND EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull teem with lice.

The Christ Himself a sack of rice,
Held in his mother's drooping arms,
Will grease your eyes in Roman homes.
God is not blind to ancient charms.

These are the idols John warned us
might damn our poor flock's naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these pagan arts.

The elders preached in rooms of stone,
Down aisles built for yearning sheep.
The rocks that make their tombs will say:
A heart of Rome will find no sleep.

FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  "... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,Really like the first line. Kudos on that. But, (and I am certainly not one to give advice on punctuation) is the comma needed after the first line?
To Saintly men in grief reposed, is grief reposed an enigma? I'm not going to insinuate I know what I'm talking about, but that doesn't seem right to me.
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.
I really don't understand this stanza, whether that is indicative of "dunciness" on my part, I don't know..

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts. I dig this line, and it's composition a lot.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts. These last two lines are somewhat unclear to me. I get it, but it is still not the most efficient I don't think

I speak to thee from place of stone, I Like the poetry of this line
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

Overall, it was a little too obscure, I thought. But none the less, I do like it.

Thank you for your kind and honest feedback, Khan You're right about L1 not needing a comma after it. Repose, as a verb, means (quoting Google's dictionary): "be situated or kept in a particular place", so the Saintly men are held in a place of grief, the place being a frame of mind, and that frame of mind being grief. The first verse refers to ancient icons: sculptures and paintings of religious characters, saints and scenes. I should have made that clearer. The last two lines of verse two refer to the smashing of those sculptures and paintings. Thanks again, Khan, you've given me a lot to think about!

Jack,

I see no need to do a line by line as I only have three comments.

Having a fifth line in S1 sets up an expectation that the pattern will continue, especially as it is a very specific type of pattern. In the first four lines you have set up a stanza of ballad meter (which you continue in S2 and S3), iambic tetrameter w/ axax rhyme scheme (quite nice actually). The fifth line breaks that fairly well known pattern for a line that is somewhat awkward. The word paring of "Slid limply" strikes me as odd. for one, I am not even sure if that is possible. I am not sure how one slides limply. Although I guess it technically wouldn't, it seems as though the two should be exclusionary. I just have a hard time visualizing it. I think maybe part of the problem is instead of using 'through' "His mother's arms" you use "in". Saying "in" makes it sound stationary. So then I wonder how can something "slid in arms?" I'm not sure it can. Plus I'm not even sure this happened. I have seen paintings where she held him in her arms and he was limp, but I do not know if this is such a well known icon it warrants breaking from you ballad meter, especially as you do not continue it further on. It is a fairly common usage to add a fifth line to something like ballad meter as it seems to make the stanza end on a sigh, but to only use it once causes a major disruption in the poem. Anyone with any knowledge would immediately recognize the discrepancy and with less informed readers who might not notice at a conscious level, I think it would still have an impact on the way the poem effected them. It is often just such below the radar sorts of things that takes a potentially good poem and turns it into a mediocre one.

I'll get this out of the way before I forget it. I really think you could do away with capping the start of every line, and could probably lose the commas at the ends of those lines, if for no other reason it makes the reading easier.

OK, the third thing and then we are done. This line:

"I speak to thee from place of stone"

Despite that it is in iambs and does have the correct number of feet, this is probably the worst line I have seen you compose. Of course it should say,
"I speak to you from "a" place of stone." That would unfortunately screw up the meter, but your solution for this line cannot be allowed. You write all of these really nice lines of iambic tetrameter that actually come across as having weight (certainly a triumph in this form), but then you throw out this completely off pitch note in the middle of this nice melody. I'm sure you must have been aware of this before I pointed it out. (I don't know if KK mentioned it also. I generally do not read other peoples' critiques before I have written my own as I do not want to be influenced by them.)
Yet there it is, use whatever tired cliche you choose to describe it, "sticks out like a sore thumb," or whatever. It needs to be rectified post haste.

So there are my three comments. Not really a proper critique for "serious" but it's all I have at the moment.
Despite my objections I do like the poem. It is quite amazing that you have such good material with these few horrible things mixed in. Usually it tends to be the other way around. Nice to see you back.

Dale    

       

The line itself seems somewhat clumsy

Don't want to spam the boards, but I thought that was an excellent critique from Dale.

Don't be a suck up.  Dale's ego is already far too large/ Admin

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  "... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise, Truly excellent rennaisance imagery. I can see the whole picture in glowing oils
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms. The from/to is there. End that journey. The problem is the contact adhesion brought about by the "and". The link to from/to, a single ticket, should not be made as a chronological continuation so  bring the  extra destination out of  the itinery. So: when God himself, a sack of rice, slid limply in His mother's arms. It is rather like saying I want go from Aberdeen to London and WHEN Dover.  

These are the idols John told us Watch your meter. Pesky anapest ends up stumbling in.
Would bring to folly naive hearts. Hmmm. Not sure what this inversion purpose serves, especially re. the last line of this stanza
If hammers be the rage of Christ, No comma
Let men destroy these morbid arts. This would be an unforced error in tennis. I cannot get the "morbid arts" to ring with anything but the plangent peal of the lonesome rhyme. Not being sure,yet, who the narrator is I am a little unhappy with the pontificating preachiness here.Does it matter...probably not if Moses, but quite a lot if Hes. By the by, I see no reason for splitting couplets in to ?A?A instead of AA. Your poem

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well: Stone me. Twice. Getting a bit "andy" overall. Though only two instances it is a much shorter piece than it seems due to the  line splitting. I don't think "teach" is the mot juste (are you la, dale? ), surely "tell" would do?
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

First off, Hes,  nice work.
This is commitment verse with a strong sense of unyielding purpose. I cannot say it is enhanced by the crazy capitalising of every line...Slid almost becomes a comedic character " Hi, Slid, how's it goin'".
There are some grammatical issues which seem inconsequential, and are, but this is serious so see in-text.
Can I also make clear to those who would crit the crit, I would  normally have a hissy fit over the language thou hast lapsed in to occasionally but you COULD put this whole piece in to quotes...unless that final stanza is from an alternative narrator?
Again,
nicely fashioned,
tectak

Jack,

Your offering excels as a very effective diatribe from someone opposed to religious depiction. Your first two lines are gorgeous! If your initial stanza refers to iconic artwork, you could readily indicate that in your title by simply changing the word ‘Images’ to ‘Icons’ therein. However, that may not be what you want.

The ‘from’ and ‘too’ that you employ in stanza 1 calls for some sort of conclusion in my mind, but there is none. It seemed to need a subject/verb preamble or postscript during my read, for example:

‘…from sea to shiny sea and across continents in between…, ‘ sounds like an incomplete sentence without placing something like ‘we surged’ fore or aft. I wonder if swapping the period after arms for a colon would settle that, so that 'these are the idols' serves the purpose.

A ‘sack of rice’ implies a heavy and inert object to me. ‘Slumped weighty/heavy’ or something in that vein might be more apropos.

I’m ambiguous about the ‘ye old speak’ and first word capping methinks,’ but it does fit your theme. Nonetheless, in your close, are both ‘thee’s needed for repetition? The same goes for the ‘stone’s and the ‘will’s. If you want to avoid word duplication, you could substitute an ‘all,’ ‘rock’ and ‘shall’ for one of each, respectively.

‘Papist’ capitalized is an intriguing choice, since it is usually employed as a derogatory term for Catholics loyal to the Pope over the Church. It adds a poignant note to that last line!

See if anything in this critique aids you in your next edit. Cheers/Chris

(01-16-2015, 01:42 PM)Erthona Wrote:  Jack,

I see no need to do a line by line as I only have three comments.

Having a fifth line in S1 sets up an expectation that the pattern will continue, especially as it is a very specific type of pattern. In the first four lines you have set up a stanza of ballad meter (which you continue in S2 and S3), iambic tetrameter w/ axax rhyme scheme (quite nice actually). The fifth line breaks that fairly well known pattern for a line that is somewhat awkward. The word paring of "Slid limply" strikes me as odd. for one, I am not even sure if that is possible. I am not sure how one slides limply. Although I guess it technically wouldn't, it seems as though the two should be exclusionary. I just have a hard time visualizing it. I think maybe part of the problem is instead of using 'through' "His mother's arms" you use "in". Saying "in" makes it sound stationary. So then I wonder how can something "slid in arms?" I'm not sure it can. Plus I'm not even sure this happened. I have seen paintings where she held him in her arms and he was limp, but I do not know if this is such a well known icon it warrants breaking from you ballad meter, especially as you do not continue it further on. It is a fairly common usage to add a fifth line to something like ballad meter as it seems to make the stanza end on a sigh, but to only use it once causes a major disruption in the poem. Anyone with any knowledge would immediately recognize the discrepancy and with less informed readers who might not notice at a conscious level, I think it would still have an impact on the way the poem effected them. It is often just such below the radar sorts of things that takes a potentially good poem and turns it into a mediocre one.

I'll get this out of the way before I forget it. I really think you could do away with capping the start of every line, and could probably lose the commas at the ends of those lines, if for no other reason it makes the reading easier.

OK, the third thing and then we are done. This line:

"I speak to thee from place of stone"

Despite that it is in iambs and does have the correct number of feet, this is probably the worst line I have seen you compose. Of course it should say,
"I speak to you from "a" place of stone." That would unfortunately screw up the meter, but your solution for this line cannot be allowed. You write all of these really nice lines of iambic tetrameter that actually come across as having weight (certainly a triumph in this form), but then you throw out this completely off pitch note in the middle of this nice melody. I'm sure you must have been aware of this before I pointed it out. (I don't know if KK mentioned it also. I generally do not read other peoples' critiques before I have written my own as I do not want to be influenced by them.)
Yet there it is, use whatever tired cliche you choose to describe it, "sticks out like a sore thumb," or whatever. It needs to be rectified post haste.

So there are my three comments. Not really a proper critique for "serious" but it's all I have at the moment.
Despite my objections I do like the poem. It is quite amazing that you have such good material with these few horrible things mixed in. Usually it tends to be the other way around. Nice to see you back.

Dale    

       

The line itself seems somewhat clumsy

Thank you so much for your thorough and honest feedback, Erthona This may sound strange, but I only realised I had five lines in the first verse after I'd read the handwritten version again, and couldn't find a way to trim it down to four without losing the cohesion of the last image (which, by the way, was based on Michelangelo's Pieta: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...d_edit.jpg). I'd intended the poem to be three quatrains. 
As for the "place of stone" line, though I completely understand how egregious it is now I've read your critique and re-read the line, alone and in context, I must admit I had no idea how awful it was. I guess I'm a bit of a dunce lately I will rectify it and use your great critique to forge an edited version of this poem. 
However, I simply cannot un-cap each line. Well, I can, but I refuse to, because that's how I like reading metred poetry, with capitals at the beginning of each line. Sorry, I know it's irrational and foolishly antiquated, but then so am I

---

(01-16-2015, 11:03 PM)ChristopherSea Wrote:  Jack,

Your offering excels as a very effective diatribe from someone opposed to religious depiction. Your first two lines are gorgeous! If your initial stanza refers to iconic artwork, you could readily indicate that in your title by simply changing the word ‘Images’ to ‘Icons’ therein. However, that may not be what you want.

The ‘from’ and ‘too’ that you employ in stanza 1 calls for some sort of conclusion in my mind, but there is none. It seemed to need a subject/verb preamble or postscript during my read, for example:

‘…from sea to shiny sea and across continents in between…, ‘ sounds like an incomplete sentence without placing something like ‘we surged’ fore or aft. I wonder if swapping the period after arms for a colon would settle that, so that 'these are the idols' serves the purpose.

A ‘sack of rice’ implies a heavy and inert object to me. ‘Slumped weighty/heavy’ or something in that vein might be more apropos.

I’m ambiguous about the ‘ye old speak’ and first word capping methinks,’ but it does fit your theme. Nonetheless, in your close, are both ‘thee’s needed for repetition? The same goes for the ‘stone’s and the ‘will’s. If you want to avoid word duplication, you could substitute an ‘all,’ ‘rock’ and ‘shall’ for one of each, respectively.

‘Papist’ capitalized is an intriguing choice, since it is usually employed as a derogatory term for Catholics loyal to the Pope over the Church. It adds a poignant note to that last line!

See if anything in this critique aids you in your next edit. Cheers/Chris

Thank you for this awesome critique, Christopher Sea I actually prefer "Icons" to "Images" in the title, now you mention it, so I will change that. I also see what you mean about the incomplete sentence, and will see if a semi-colon can help. Finally, I see what you mean about the "thee"s and may just replace them with "you"s. Thanks again!

---

(01-16-2015, 07:49 PM)tectak Wrote:  

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  "... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise, Truly excellent rennaisance imagery. I can see the whole picture in glowing oils
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms. The from/to is there. End that journey. The problem is the contact adhesion brought about by the "and". The link to from/to, a single ticket, should not be made as a chronological continuation so  bring the  extra destination out of  the itinery. So: when God himself, a sack of rice, slid limply in His mother's arms. It is rather like saying I want go from Aberdeen to London and WHEN Dover.  

These are the idols John told us Watch your meter. Pesky anapest ends up stumbling in.
Would bring to folly naive hearts. Hmmm. Not sure what this inversion purpose serves, especially re. the last line of this stanza
If hammers be the rage of Christ, No comma
Let men destroy these morbid arts. This would be an unforced error in tennis. I cannot get the "morbid arts" to ring with anything but the plangent peal of the lonesome rhyme. Not being sure,yet, who the narrator is I am a little unhappy with the pontificating preachiness here.Does it matter...probably not if Moses, but quite a lot if Hes. By the by, I see no reason for splitting couplets in to ?A?A instead of AA. Your poem

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well: Stone me. Twice. Getting a bit "andy" overall. Though only two instances it is a much shorter piece than it seems due to the  line splitting. I don't think "teach" is the mot juste (are you la, dale? ), surely "tell" would do?
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

First off, Hes,  nice work.
This is commitment verse with a strong sense of unyielding purpose. I cannot say it is enhanced by the crazy capitalising of every line...Slid almost becomes a comedic character " Hi, Slid, how's it goin'".
There are some grammatical issues which seem inconsequential, and are, but this is serious so see in-text.
Can I also make clear to those who would crit the crit, I would  normally have a hissy fit over the language thou hast lapsed in to occasionally but you COULD put this whole piece in to quotes...unless that final stanza is from an alternative narrator?
Again,
nicely fashioned,
tectak

Thank you for your thorough and insightful critique, tectak! The narrator throughout is a Protestant preacher during the English Reformation, not an atheist arrested-adolescent like me I will try to use your thoughtful and helpful criticisms well, my friend, and thank you again, for your kindness and honesty.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:

Hi hes,
excellent edit. Only a couple of  nits. See in text.
Best,
tectak
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed, I know you cling tenaciously to your capital line starts like some octogenarian octopus but you end up with a surfeit such that it makes me pull up every time I see a capital letter, never  being sure if you have had second thoughts on a line break and forgot to remove the old capital. Is saintly any more in need of a capital than ,say, idols. You make yourself inconsistent in my front room.
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts. I know all about equality but why capitalise pagan...er ...and not arts?

From this meek house of stone I preach, " In this meek house of stone I preach.." You will see why.
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep, "from pulpit fit for cloistered sheep"...otherwise you preach this pulpit. End this sentence with...oh, what is it called....ah, yes , a period.
And these bleak bricks will tell you now: "These cold (eg) bleak bricks..." gets rid of the weak "and".
That Papist hearts will find no sleep. A missed opportunity here, to  get rid of that "that". As you are now "telling" rather than "teaching" you can also lose the colon to a comma. " These cold, bleak bricks will tell you well,
proud papist hearts will find no sleep" Your poem.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

[/b]

Hi, thanks for posting this, I found the original effective even with its faults and have a few issues with the edit. I understand the issues others had with L4/5 but I loved the image and miss it. I would prefer an edit something along the lines of

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
to heavy in His mother's arms
our God Himself a sack of rice.

or something better, but keeping that image.

I also prefer the line "Would bring to folly naive hearts." to the edit. While the line itself need rearranging the meaning for me was much more perceptive than that broad, preachy "wicked" in the edit.

I think the change from morbid to Pagan hits your target well, though the icons are both the change hits harder.

Just my two cents.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

The best line in the poem was "and god himself a sack of rice"

So it is perplexing that you removed it. (although it does need a comma)

(01-17-2015, 07:02 PM)tectak Wrote:  

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:

Hi hes,
excellent edit. Only a couple of  nits. See in text.
Best,
tectak
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed, I know you cling tenaciously to your capital line starts like some octogenarian octopus but you end up with a surfeit such that it makes me pull up every time I see a capital letter, never  being sure if you have had second thoughts on a line break and forgot to remove the old capital. Is saintly any more in need of a capital than ,say, idols. You make yourself inconsistent in my front room.
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts. I know all about equality but why capitalise pagan...er ...and not arts?

From this meek house of stone I preach, " In this meek house of stone I preach.." You will see why.
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep, "from pulpit fit for cloistered sheep"...otherwise you preach this pulpit. End this sentence with...oh, what is it called....ah, yes , a period.
And these bleak bricks will tell you now: "These cold (eg) bleak bricks..." gets rid of the weak "and".
That Papist hearts will find no sleep. A missed opportunity here, to  get rid of that "that". As you are now "telling" rather than "teaching" you can also lose the colon to a comma. " These cold, bleak bricks will tell you well,
proud papist hearts will find no sleep" Your poem.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

[/b]

Thank you for your great follow-up feedback, tectak! I'll use most of it in a third edit. As for "cold bleak bricks" and "proud Papist hearts", I don't like to pile on adjectives because it often sounds false to my ears. Your recommendations for verses two and three are excellent and will be made use of. Yours, Octogenarian Octopus xxx 

---

(01-18-2015, 01:42 AM)milo Wrote:  

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

The best line in the poem was "and god himself a sack of rice"

So it is perplexing that you removed it. (although it does need a comma)

I didn't realise that line was so impressive. I'll add another verse for it Thank you, milo!

---

(01-17-2015, 09:03 PM)ellajam Wrote:  Hi, thanks for posting this, I found the original effective even with its faults and have a few issues with the edit. I understand the issues others had with L4/5 but I loved the image and miss it. I would prefer an edit something along the lines of

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
to heavy in His mother's arms
our God Himself a sack of rice.

or something better, but keeping that image.

I also prefer the line "Would bring to folly naive hearts." to the edit. While the line itself need rearranging the meaning for me was much more perceptive than that broad, preachy "wicked" in the edit.

I think the change from morbid to Pagan hits your target well, though the icons are both the change hits harder.

Just my two cents.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

Thank you for your excellent feedback, ellajam, and I'm glad you liked "naive hearts"! That gives me the impetus to see if I can work it in again

(01-18-2015, 04:50 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  

(01-17-2015, 07:02 PM)tectak Wrote:  

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:

Hi hes,
excellent edit. Only a couple of  nits. See in text.
Best,
tectak
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed, I know you cling tenaciously to your capital line starts like some octogenarian octopus but you end up with a surfeit such that it makes me pull up every time I see a capital letter, never  being sure if you have had second thoughts on a line break and forgot to remove the old capital. Is saintly any more in need of a capital than ,say, idols. You make yourself inconsistent in my front room.
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts. I know all about equality but why capitalise pagan...er ...and not arts?

From this meek house of stone I preach, " In this meek house of stone I preach.." You will see why.
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep, "from pulpit fit for cloistered sheep"...otherwise you preach this pulpit. End this sentence with...oh, what is it called....ah, yes , a period.
And these bleak bricks will tell you now: "These cold (eg) bleak bricks..." gets rid of the weak "and".
That Papist hearts will find no sleep. A missed opportunity here, to  get rid of that "that". As you are now "telling" rather than "teaching" you can also lose the colon to a comma. " These cold, bleak bricks will tell you well,
proud papist hearts will find no sleep" Your poem.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

[/b]

Thank you for your great follow-up feedback, tectak! I'll use most of it in a third edit. As for "cold bleak bricks" and "proud Papist hearts", I don't like to pile on adjectives because it often sounds false to my ears. Your recommendations for verses two and three are excellent and will be made use of. Yours, Octogenarian Octopusxxx 

---

(01-18-2015, 01:42 AM)milo Wrote:  

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

The best line in the poem was "and god himself a sack of rice"

So it is perplexing that you removed it. (although it does need a comma)

I didn't realise that line was so impressive. I'll add another verse for it Thank you, milo!

---

(01-17-2015, 09:03 PM)ellajam Wrote:  Hi, thanks for posting this, I found the original effective even with its faults and have a few issues with the edit. I understand the issues others had with L4/5 but I loved the image and miss it. I would prefer an edit something along the lines of

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
to heavy in His mother's arms
our God Himself a sack of rice.

or something better, but keeping that image.

I also prefer the line "Would bring to folly naive hearts." to the edit. While the line itself need rearranging the meaning for me was much more perceptive than that broad, preachy "wicked" in the edit.

I think the change from morbid to Pagan hits your target well, though the icons are both the change hits harder.

Just my two cents.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

Thank you for your excellent feedback, ellajam, and I'm glad you liked "naive hearts"! That gives me the impetus to see if I can work it in again

...."and that" as they say, is better than an adjective or two?
Best,
tectak

As you'll see from my latest edit, I cowed to your sweet talk and removed those prepositions

(01-18-2015, 05:57 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  As you'll see from my latest edit, I cowed to your sweet talk and removed those prepositions

Ella makes sweet talk , too...but watch out for that extra half-foot on naive against proud.
Incidentally, there is a clarion call of "Papist and Proud" . I saw it often in the borders of Ireland, usually on placards outside firework factories....I thought nothing of it, but hmmmm....maybe, though that would be an ecumenical matter (Father Ted)
Best
tectak

---

(01-18-2015, 05:57 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  As you'll see from my latest edit, I cowed to your sweet talk and removed those prepositions

Ella makes sweet talk , too...but watch out for that extra half-foot on naive against proud.
Incidentally, there is a clarion call of "Papist and Proud" . I saw it often in the borders of Ireland, usually on  placards outside firework factories....I thought nothing of it, but hmmmm....maybe, though that would be an ecumenical matter (Father Ted)
Best
tectak

Jack,

I think an added quatrain is a good idea, and I would concur with milo. With the four extra lines it seems you should be able to get in a functional two line description of what was S1 L4&5.

I usually could care less if a line is technology correct but this line "Down aisles built for yearning sheep" is disruptive. If you had been using accentual verse throughout it would be fine, but with the solid iambic tetrameter around it, this line really sticks out.  

"down aisles built for" are all neutral syllables and depending on the words around them. However if one allows the leeway they could be read as two feet of iambs. even so the first syllable on yearning is the one that is accented. Depending on how one reads sheep as accented or not will tell if it is a foot and a half of trochee yearning sheep, or a foot of dactyl. Regardless, after the flip in the middle of the line the rest reads like a stutter. I was initially reading the stanza without much regard to the meter, but this immediately acted as a speed bump. Some lines allow you to get away with variations, but between the barely iambic of the first two feet, the trochee of the third (that's how I read it) and then the half foot in the fourth combine to make this an unusable line. Because most of your lines are very solid and delivery the four foot iambic pattern almost unconsciously, even to those unaware of meter I believe this would pull them up short.

Maybe you could explain S1L4. "We see the brass bull teem with lice." There seem two possible candidates. I know that Aaron, Moses' brother created a bull for the people to worship while Moses was on Mt. Sinai speaking with God. It has also been suggested that there was a tie in with Jesus and the the "Mithras Cult." There are problems with both as I believe Aaron's bull was actually a cow made of gold, and the link to the Mithras cult is still speculation. I suppose it could also be a referent to the worship of Baal from a Biblical context, as Baal was always cited as a false god, and often the idea of idols are mentioned in context of him. Baal is most often associated with the Akkadian (Adad) and Sumerian god (Ishkur), later known as Hadad. The bull was the symbolic animal of Hadad. I somehow think you are not going back this far as we are looking at approximately 2500BCE at the earliest.  
So maybe simply a "Bull idol" and the lice being the infection to worship idols, or maybe it is purely a parasitic relation, or maybe this is another icon or painting with which I am not this time familiar. If you could clarify my curiosity would appreciate it   Anyway, it seems much wandering for little gain.

 

Dale

I'm afraid my Biblical knowledge isn't as nuanced as yours, Erthona  The bull refers to the one the Jews started worshipping in the desert after the exodus from Egypt, before Moses laid down that "no idols" rule. As for "teem with lice", the original phrase was "snort with life", which I intended as a metaphor for the return of idolatrous worship, but I replaced it with the lice line a) because it rhymed, and b) because it's a nasty image, and I like nasty images. I'm afraid my reasoning wasn't any more complex than that. I must admit, I read the "down aisles" line as iambic, but then I may have been verbally moulding it to fit my intention without actually honing the line, if that makes sense. In fact, I'm sure that's what I was doing. Do you have any suggestions for converting it to iambs?
(As an aside, my understanding of iambic pentameter is derived from The Ode Less Travelled by Stephen Fry, in which he tells you to read a line of iambic pentameter like a "ti-tum-ti-tum" drumbeat. So I was unconsciously tricking myself into thinking that "down aisles built for yearning sheep" had that beat. I think  ) Thank you for your help with all this, by the way. I really appreciate your knowledge and guidance.

(01-16-2015, 08:10 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  SECOND EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion
Whoa there, Neddy. You are bolting!
From Eve in vines about her legs
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull teem with lice. Esoteric. I don't want to know what it means

The Christ Himself a sack of rice,
Held in his mother's drooping arms,
Will grease your eyes in Roman homes. Esoteric.I don't want to know what it means
God is not blind to ancient charms.
The stanza above is haemorr.....haemoh...bleeding out of meaning. Take care...get there
These are the idols John warned us
might damn our poor flock's naive hearts. John knew a thing or two...I doubt he ever said well, maybe, there's just the off chance that....there again, I'm called Thomas.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these pagan arts. Go boolean...IF:THEN. "then we must (or shall?) break these pagan arts"

The elders preached in rooms of stone,
Down aisles built for yearning sheep. I cannot emphasise how much emphasis matters...and preaching down an aisle doesn't gel...so it ain't aspic
The rocks that make their tombs will say: No. Talking rocks does not work for me...now talking bollocks, that I can accept
A heart of Rome will find no sleep. Much diminished over your previous edit."A" heart? Who...name names.

FIRST EDIT:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
We see the brass bull snort with life.

These are the idols John warned us
Would curse our flocks with wicked hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ
We all must break these Pagan arts.

From this meek house of stone I preach,
This pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And these bleak bricks will tell you now:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

ORIGINAL:
"... for five hundred years, during which religion was in a more prosperous condition, and a purer doctrine flourished, Christian churches were completely free from visible representations" - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

From Eve in vines about her legs,
Like fetters forged in Paradise,
To Saintly men in grief reposed,
And God Himself a sack of rice,
Slid limply in His mother's arms.

These are the idols John told us
Would bring to folly naive hearts.
If hammers be the rage of Christ,
Let men destroy these morbid arts.

I speak to thee from place of stone,
A pulpit fit for cloistered sheep,
And this dark stone will teach thee well:
That Papist hearts will find no sleep.

Jack,

Jack,

Quote:Jack wrote: "Do you have any suggestions for converting it to iambs?"

Re: "might damn our poor flock's naive hearts."

I think you could get away with the first four syllables (unless you want to be a stickler) if you rectified the problem with "flock's. That is what is primarily screwing up the line. Although if you read the last four syllables as

flock's naive hearts (heart would generally be read as unaccented, but with the plural the "s" give it a harder feel, at least to me, plus it is where one would expect the accented syllable, or harder emphasis in an iambic line) As you see, if read this way, and I think most would if not thinking about it, it gives you three accented syllables. Plus the supposed two in the first four syllables it give a total of 5 accents/stresses. So at the least something must be done with the second half. I do not see a way to salvage it with those word, that is without making for a really ungainly line. Something like:

"might damn our poor small flock's naive."  That is all there is room for. You can boot the naive and go with


"might damn our poor small flock's bruised hearts."

I don't think that makes a very readable line but it is close enough to pass as iambic tetrameter; that is to say it will not be disruptive to the reading. I would think you would want a better line but at least it is an example of a line that can work despite not being completely in meter. Milo is much better at scanning metrical lines than I am. I tend to do what you do; imposing the meter onto lines that actually do not have it so you are not alone. I don't know if milo is actually better than I, but he puts forth he assessment with such confidence I usually defer to him
Actually I would like to here his reading of the first four words and if he believes them to be neutral words, or if he even acknowledges such a concept. My idea is that certain single syllable words can be heard as both stressed or unstressed depending on what surrounds them.

That's about the extent I can help on this, to do more would severely affect the meaning of the line.

Luck,

Dale

@tectak: What is poetry without a little esoterica, said the bratty twentysomething? I don't mind explaining the meaning of the brass bull line because there isn't really one. The brass bull is the idol the Jews worshipped in the desert after the exodus and before Moses said "no idols", and "teem with lice" is just a nasty image I liked the sound of. Also, there's allusions to a brass bull snorting in darkness in Dennis Wheatley's The Satanist, a novel I like.
"Roman" is synonymous with Catholic in both instances and for my purposes. One bit of esoterica you might have missed is the mention of John", now that I think about it. I have a sinking suspicion that readers think I'm referring to John Calvin, when in fact the passage I took the epigram from contains an allusion to John 1:21 in the Bible. From Calvin's treatise: "This undoubtedly is the reason why John ... enjoins us to beware, not only of the worship of idols, but also of idols themselves."

---

@Erthona: Thank you for your very kind, helpful and honest feedback >< If you defer to milo, I defer to you, and the three of us create a human centipede of poetry Just kidding!