same sex sexuality in poetry?

[billy]

this post is not about gays, don't make it so.

jack brought up the fact he surprised that someone besides me found his poem about a lesbian love affair tastefully done.

what are your views on poetry and writing in general about same sex sexuality, e.g.; the bringing of it into the public arena via book film and poetry, maybe even art.

personally i enjoy good poetry irrespective of it's content. and it doesn't always have to be tasteful. i'm keen on the 'in your face' stuff too much because think the very graphic nature of the thing weakens it too much.

being honest i have to say while i can read and enjoy a poem about something many may find taboo, i could never knowingly read a book about the same thing or watch a film. the simple reason is that it does nothing for me from an emotional point of view. and yes i have watched lesbians in porn films, and i confess found it to be sexually exciting. the thing is it was probably because i was looking with a heterosexual male POV.

i never did or ever will watch brokeback mountain or anything like it.
the sight of seeing two men kissing/fondling etc, even on screen doesn't work right in my brain. i'm sure non heterosexuals would feel the same way about male female contact etc.

i think it right that poetry art writing etc is as broad a spectrum as can be. including such things as gay porn, poetry from a same sex couples POV. it doesn't offend my senses that such material be made public or is published. and after reading jacks poem; Dirty weekendi'm hoping i get the chance to read more.

i think the taboo is there for many and i think while we all have the choice not read or see that which we don't want to read or see, the world is better for taboo subjects being put out there.

i hope i haven't offended anyone, thats not my intention.

so what are your thoughts on the matter? (poets and non poets alike)

[heslopian]

I wasn't so much surprised as just happy I hadn't offended anyone and that my poem was considered tasteful. Because I don't know a great deal about "what lesbians do" I felt I was blundering in the dark somewhat. I decided to avoid bringing up sex toys and what not in case it became cheap, misinformed pornography.
Though I derive no sexual thrills from witnessing two women make love, I don't mind seeing it on screen or reading about it in a book, so long as it's tastefully done and relevant to the narrative. Then again, I probably felt the same way you do about the prospect of seeing Brokeback Mountain when I watched Tipping the Velvet, which featured a scene where a woman strapped on a wooden phallus and graphically pleasured her lover. There were times when I closed my eyes and took a deep breath.
A lesbian (or heterosexual, for that matter) couple kissing or holding hands, however, doesn't affect me at all. That's kind of why I decided to make "Dirty Weekend" about lesbians. Because the simple fact of a lesbian relationship doesn't repulse or arouse me, so I could look at it completely objectively.
Though I understand your reservations, I'd still suggest keeping an open mind about Brokeback Mountain, as it isn't just about homosexuality but dreams and repression in general; the gay romance is a metaphor. I can't really judge how you'll feel regarding the sex scenes, because I can't inhabit your POV to a great enough degree, but there's no full frontal nakedness and the lovemaking is more implied than physically seen.

[billy]

maybe it's the implications, but i wouldn't feel happy
it just isn't my type of film, metaphor or no. that way i'm not into general love story films etc. maybe if it were a comedy and there were two gay guys in it i'd watch it. but not a film based around the subject gays. (is gay the correct terminology). i did enjoy midnight cowboy though i'm not sure if that bears any relevance. we;re a funny bunch of people when you think of it. most hetero guys would bang a woman anally or at least try but vomit at doing it with a guy. most hetro guys think they could turn a gay women straight hehe. i think it's because the male of the species can't accept he's a god to the female

i think of all the artistic media we have, poetry is one of the best for cutting away the taboos and the world is all the better a place for it.

[kath3]

Whether the topic be put out there through film, song, book, art or poetry ... either you are an open minded person or not, and will determine acceptance/rejection in any form. While most men and women can handle watching two females get it on, two males is still very distressing to heteros. I consider myself to be an open minded and a very tolerant person, but I too squirm at the sight of two males romancing ... I have to put effort in at getting past my ignorance, maybe it's because socially it's more accepting of lesbians ... the so-called weaker sex, while males are to be strong, the protector and provider to the weaker sex (just a thought).
As for Broke Back Mountain ... what an amazingly and moving film. It captures the love, hate and complications of a gay relationship in such an astonishing and real way. I think all who struggle with homosexuality should watch it as it can't help but to soften homophobes.
I too very much enjoyed reading Dirty Weekend ... you amaze me Jack!

[billy]

is someone who doesn't like to watch two men in a sexual encounter on film homophobic?
it's just a personal thing with me, i applaud the making of any film be it gay or straight. i just don't watch certain films.
am i/we homophobic? i'm not sure but i do know that would be proud to call jack friend going off what little i know of him from here.
don't get me wrong, i wouldn't want to see him in a sex clinch with his partner for me it's people like jack (his attitude and not his sexual preferences) that diminish the taboo of same sex in media. for me love hate should be the same in any relationship, that's one of the main reasons i don't watch love stories per say. the thought of two guys seldom enters my thoughts and i think it's because of who i am, not what i am. while we all have labels i don't think we are labels we're all the same in 99% of instances. we all love, hate emote in exactly the same way

[kath3]

is someone who doesn't like to watch two men in a sexual encounter on film homophobic?
it's just a personal thing with me, i applaud the making of any film be it gay or straight. i just don't watch certain films.
am i/we homophobic? i'm not sure but i do know that would be proud to call jack friend going off what little i know of him from here.
don't get me wrong, i wouldn't want to see him in a sex clinch with his partner for me it's people like jack (his attitude and not his sexual preferences) that diminish the taboo of same sex in media. for me love hate should be the same in any relationship, that's one of the main reasons i don't watch love stories per say. the thought of two guys seldom enters my thoughts and i think it's because of who i am, not what i am. while we all have labels i don't think we are labels we're all the same in 99% of instances. we all love, hate emote in exactly the same way

Homophobic? I don't know. If it's not then why would seeing two men together bother anybody?
This post got me questioning why is it that I struggle when seeing two men together romantically? I live in a fairly isolated area and we don't have many if any known gays, so it's not something that I'm accustomed to or see. Would living in an area with much more openness change my attitude? Would it lessen my struggle or would it encourage me to be repulsed?

i never did or ever will watch brokeback mountain or anything like it.
the sight of seeing two men kissing/fondling etc, even on screen doesn't work right in my brain.

This is what I'm trying to understand. My husband couldn't watch the movie either, yet I know very well he'd have no problem watching lesbians, and most likely would become aroused. Seeing two females or two males does nothing for me sexually, though seeing two males makes me shudder. By my confession am I infact a homophobic? I shudder to think so.
This is not a topic that I find myself engaged in often, I appreciate it ... gets me looking deep within my own prejudices if infact it is a prejudice or merely an ignorance.
I wouldn't want to see Jack mooning his mate either, I also wouldn't want to see my hetero freinds mooning each other either ... I consider it a private act. People slobbering over each other publicly is a turn off for me.
I hope I didn't come across as pointing fingers in judgement ... not my intention.

[billy]

though not wanting to watch a gay or straight movie may be homo or heterophobic. i think it boils down to choice. personally i don't see it as homophobic on my part because i'm not scared of single gender guys or the films that depict them, i don't think the fact that something doesn't work right in my/our brain doesn't mean i/we have a phobia about it. it just doesn't enter my life. i look at what the film is about and don't watch it. poetry on the other hand is different, i will avidly read any poem put before me even knowing the content prior to reading it. i may hate a poem after reading it but i at least want to hate it because it's a bad poem and not because it has subject matter i don't like. if it's well written i'll enjoy it irrespective of it having gay content etc. which makes poetry for me a better conduit for getting it out there, sadly most only read the hall mark poetry of cards and so never come across such fine writes.

[kath3]

I hear you better this time around, and agree no subject should be taboo if it's tastefully done. By tastefully done I mean with sincereity, passion, and honesty.
I would feel the same whether in movie form, song or poety if something were exposed for shock value only I probably wouldn't continue watching or reading (but that's me).

[heslopian]

I understand how you both feel about gay male sexuality, and though I think reacting with repulsion at the sight of two men (or two women, for that matter; strangely enough my mother and her mother are more uncomfortable with lesbianism) kissing or holding is homophobia, I don't think it makes the person homophobic. We're all wired a specific way based on our environment and inherent mindsets; Kath lives in an area where there are no openly gay people, so it makes sense she'd be unsettled by exposure to homosexual behaviour, because she doesn't often see and is thus afraid of it. But she isn't homophobic because she's a kind and intelligent woman, and thus she understands that not everything she fears is a threat (sorry for using you as my clinical example like this, Kath).
I myself have been prone to homophobia for the same reasons. I never met a gay person until I was fifteen or so and my best friend Bobby came out. Once when I was seventeen I was in a play with an older gay man who invited me to his house to run lines one night and, as much as I'm ashamed to admit it now, I was scared of being alone with him and his partner, even though they were perfectly nice. I think the partner sensed my fear, as he kept asking if I was okay and offering me orange squash. Of course being homosexual myself complicated matters, but having never met a person I knew was gay throughout my childhood the fear was still there.
But going back to the subject of poetry and art, though I like the film Brokeback Mountain a lot I've never thought it relevant to me or my "experience". I think it's a mistake to assume that the sole purpose of exploring homosexuality in film and so forth is to reflect a general consensus. Like heterosexuals, gay people don't share universal traits. If we're serious about combating prejudice then I think we should start normalising gay people in our stories; I'd love to one day see a film where the hero is gay but the story doesn't revolve around that, like a cop buddy thing where the main character shoots the bad guys and navigates action scenes before driving off into the sunset with his boyfriend or husband at the end. I appreciate that that might never happen though.
And you don't need to worry, I shan't be mooning anyone and begging them to ravage me in public anytime soon

[billy]

I shan't be mooning anyone and begging them to ravage me in public anytime soon :Hysterical:


such a waste

i was going to say 'i'm not repulsed by seeing male sex act' but on reflection i think i would be. and that's okay. i think the problematics occur if we denigrate them for doing it which of course we shouldn't. the reason i think poetry is the best avenue for getting it into the social consciousness is this; it isn't as in your face (though it can be) it isn't as gaudy, (though it can be) it feeds into our brains in a way that doesn't seem as intrusive. i suppose i'm saying it prepares us.

jack said;
I'd love to one day see a film where the hero is gay but the story doesn't revolve around that, like a cop buddy thing where the main character shoots the bad guys and navigates action scenes before driving off into the sunset with his boyfriend or husband at the end. I appreciate that that might never happen though.

and yeah i could watch such a film but if it had a clip of them suck saliva it would be turned off quicker than i would be hehe.
and example of such a film might be the latest Sherlock Holmes film. though they weren't overs.

[addy]

I think homosexual sexuality belongs in art just as much as straight sexuality does, be it in poems, film, literature, whatever. I'm definitely okay with reading about because, because I don't come in there with the expectation that sex in the narrative is supposed to tittilate me . As long as it makes me think (intellectual/philosophical) and/or makes me feel (emotional), it's all good, I'll know how to appreciate it. Homosexual love is love, and it's not as alien as some folks assume it is. As for seeing the sex acts on screen I have to admit I sometimes turn away in embarrassment, but I do that for straight kissing scenes as well

[billy]

while same sex love is indeed the same as mixed sex love.
same sex but fucking (sorry for being crude) isn't the same as mixed sex butt-fucking) nor is the kissing. it may be to the same gender guys but it isn't to the hetero (usually) and vice versa. (i think) i can't perceive to think what a gay couple would thing seeing a hetero in and out love scene. and again i don't think it's a phobia, i think it simply about choice or preferences.

the same way we spit out a certain veg or don't eat a certain food, we do so because we don't like the taste of out (pardon the pun)
when we do spit out a carrot odd piece of apple or cheese etc, we don't then go running round like headless chickens telling everyone not to partake of the dish because it has carrots in it. we simply don't eat it.
the same way a vegetarian would ask what kind of oil something is cooked in. it's just a matter of choice. though they're are homo/hetero/phobes which is sad.
and to get it back on topic.

the more films that have bits of carrot or apple in them, the more poetry that has that flavour of cheese we don't like in it are contributing to showing us that good food can be cooked with all foods. i read poetry and sometimes enjoy an odd piece of carrot because of it.

[ficosdarkness]

Whether the topic be put out there through film, song, book, art or poetry ... either you are an open minded person or not, and will determine acceptance/rejection in any form. While most men and women can handle watching two females get it on, two males is still very distressing to heteros. I consider myself to be an open minded and a very tolerant person, but I too squirm at the sight of two males romancing ... I have to put effort in at getting past my ignorance, maybe it's because socially it's more accepting of lesbians ... the so-called weaker sex, while males are to be strong, the protector and provider to the weaker sex (just a thought).
As for Broke Back Mountain ... what an amazingly and moving film. It captures the love, hate and complications of a gay relationship in such an astonishing and real way. I think all who struggle with homosexuality should watch it as it can't help but to soften homophobes.
I too very much enjoyed reading Dirty Weekend ... you amaze me Jack!

Ladies and Gentlemen,

From a lesbians point of view, reading all that has been written here in this forum, I have to say that you have all incorpoated the POV of most of the lesbians that I know and heteros alike. Mmmm..., "Broke Back Mountain" although I again agree with Kath's critique of the film, I could've lived without the love making, well maybe I should say the sex scenes. I don't know too many lesbians that are into man on man sex and visa versa, ya' know? My feeling for the hetero male is that maybe it's a little too close to home, maybe sometime in his lifetime he experienced feelings for a childhood friend or basketball buddy that made him a bit nervous. Ladies and gentlemen the bottom line is that erotica is erotica. I find a tasteful intimate scene between any 2 human beings that genuinly love one another pleasing to the eye. As for the in your face stuff that Billy enjoys on occaison, because I am a gay woman it's not enjoyable to me because it lacks realism. The porn industry has created something that does not exsist. Although there are so called "lipstick" lesbians the term simply refers to the more feminine of the 2 in a couple but when we hit the sack, there is no difference from my experience unless one of them is having gender identification issues, but that's another forum in itself! The L Word was a perfect example of lesbian love and relatioships that's why I enjoyed it so much, all types were represented, "lipstick", "butch" "baby butch" "transgender" "bisexual" and "hetero." Some used toys but most didn't. 90% of the sex toys bought are bought by gay men (dunno y, never asked) and hetero couples looking to spice it up in the bedroom. See guys there are "tops" and "bottoms" in all sexual relatinships. I personally am fem in the sheets, but butch in the streets! lol! I do not have 6 inch finger nails for obvious reason's, neither does my wife. That's just the porn industry trying to get your attention. As an art form it is beautiful. Tastefully done, it is a turn on. @ Jack we do the same things that you guys do minus anything phallic, except on the occaison not unlike heteros, that we need to mix things up a bit. @ Billy no offense taken at all! I find your honesty refreshing!

[heslopian]

I don't do anything phallic at all
I like your point about an intimate love scene performed tastefully, regardless of the genders involved, being pleasing to the eye, if not in a sexual way. I remember watching a beautiful scene from Tipping the Velvet where two women make out and fondle each other on the floor before a roaring fire, and though it didn't arouse me it certainly warmed my heart.

[ficosdarkness]

I don't do anything phallic at all
I like your point about an intimate love scene performed tastefully, regardless of the genders involved, being pleasing to the eye, if not in a sexual way. I remember watching a beautiful scene from Tipping the Velvet where two women make out and fondle each other on the floor before a roaring fire, and though it didn't arouse me it certainly warmed my heart.

My point exactly, Jack! Some beautiful paintings, sculptures and achitecture are very pleasing to the eye, some food pleasing to the pallat, movie's or song touch us in places and stir emotions in us that we may find pleasing to the eye and ear. I feel that writing goes a bit deeper because it forces us to go where the writer takes us, in our own minds,at times almost to the point of paticipation, differing in intesity but ultimately pleasing to our sences on a deeper level. That is why I enjoyed your poem so much. You took me there, I watched and I was very pleased with what I saw.

[billy]

in response to fd

for me two women can be hot because my genes tell me i can sort their problems out. my brain however doesn't see them having a problem and knows i'd be the last thing they'd want to use to sort out any problems including car mechanicing, sadly my dick doesn't listen to my brain. what is good about the arts, (i'm not really into the arty farty stuff etc) is that it doesn't have the same boundaries as my genes, thankfully my brain not being connected to my dick allows me the privilege of enjoying all kinds of poetry, and a lot of art. film genres have been instilled in me as worth watching or not worth watching through a few generations. i don't watch gay films of either sex really, i don't watch love stories unless it's comedy. porn i have to be honest played a role in my younger days. but not now, i'll guffaw with the guys in the sewer and i do admire a good looking woman much more so than a good looking guy. i don't really admire gays for coming out of the closet be it in the arts, ie, poetry. or in real life. it should be a natural progression from adolescence to what ever sexual orientation one has. i do find it sad that gay people have to come out of the closet, that we as a society put them in the closet to start with (unless they were wealthy aristocrats or pop stars) the arts do a whole lot of good and we as a race should know and feel all the gamut of emotion be it sexual, societal religious or anything else there is to tell and understand. not only is same sex sexuality needed in poetry, poetry itself is diminished without it. as are the other arts. as a person i have the right to watch and read what i will and dismiss it if i so choose, but as a society we should be mandated to make sure all elements of who we are be given a voice, a pen, a paintbrush and a camera, should we so wish it to be. jmo.

[ficosdarkness]

while same sex love is indeed the same as mixed sex love.
same sex but fucking (sorry for being crude) isn't the same as mixed sex butt-fucking) nor is the kissing. it may be to the same gender guys but it isn't to the hetero (usually) and vice versa. (i think) i can't perceive to think what a gay couple would thing seeing a hetero in and out love scene. and again i don't think it's a phobia, i think it simply about choice or preferences.

the same way we spit out a certain veg or don't eat a certain food, we do so because we don't like the taste of out (pardon the pun)
when we do spit out a carrot odd piece of apple or cheese etc, we don't then go running round like headless chickens telling everyone not to partake of the dish because it has carrots in it. we simply don't eat it.
the same way a vegetarian would ask what kind of oil something is cooked in. it's just a matter of choice. though they're are homo/hetero/phobes which is sad.
and to get it back on topic.

the more films that have bits of carrot or apple in them, the more poetry that has that flavour of cheese we don't like in it are contributing to showing us that good food can be cooked with all foods. i read poetry and sometimes enjoy an odd piece of carrot because of it.

Enjoy your carrot, Bill! And enjoy the occaisional "in your face" approach as well because like you said, "it IS all a matter of preference" in these such cases.

[billy]

of course it is
were it not for poetry we would probably have not had this discussion. in that respect it shows that if nothing else
same sex sexuality in the arts is pertinent and that is does have an effect, in my opinion a good effect.