Dear Pigpen: we need to talk

[Lizzie]

Imagine that I wanted to make a movie full of 90's pop culture references that others may or may not get. Should I not make that movie because not everyone will get every reference? Surely a well done movie would have something to offer even if folks didn't get each and every reference. 

Can I tell you a story? I had a piece here once that I would point to as a good representation of my overall aesthetic. I tried and tried to revise it because I had people badgering me that they weren't 'getting the point,' 'couldn't find the meaning,' as if poetry has a Point, Meaning, Truth, Answers...all the capital letters. My poetry is intended to introduce a scene or the framework of a story (and it's not important that every reference be grasped to take something away) -- it's snapshots, it's impressions, not explication. There is meaning, but not one single meaning that, if you don't get that singular meaning, then you've failed or the author has failed. At any rate, I revised this particular poem to absolute death over the objections of others because I believed that I had to reach every single reader or I had failed my job as an author. I tried to make up story lines out of nowhere (that never existed to begin with) but it didn't work, and I almost destroyed the poem in the process. Finally, Leanne told me that it was a good poem and locked it in a cabinet where I couldn't destroy it.

My pieces aren't riddles, didactic, or rhetoric. There's really no way to fail as a reader when you come to my poems other than to get frustrated that there's no singular point. If I've done my job, I've created a world where you can touch things, play around, look around and wonder. That's a successful poem for me. There's no reason to feel stupid or dejected if you don't "get the point" because there's no one single meaning. It's a snapshot to facilitate the imaginative wanderings of the reader. 

I don't belong in this forum if people are not interested in this kind of poetry. No hard feelings, but we will part ways. I will meet you in your aesthetic if I know what it is. I will help you try to achieve your own goals on your own terms. I welcome people to talk about what good poetry is for you so that I know how to help you. For instance, I would never badger Mark to include more layers of complexity or add a little mystery to his writing because I know that it's not his style. 

I am an intentional author who doesn't just slap something that I wrote on the back of a napkin and then put it into serious, full of half-baked thoughts and typos. People can help me edit by telling me what is working for them and why or I can't revise.  

This is not aimed at anyone in particular. It's how I've been feeling since I got here, and it's just now coming to a head because I'm at an inflection point. Writing is a solitary activity, and I need companionship along the way. I recognize that people might hate me from the 'before times,' or think I'm an un-talented, overly precious drama queen. Many people have come to this conclusion. What I want more than anything from this forum is to be well read, and I would do the same for you.

Anyway, this is a lot, so I thank you for your time. 

Lizzie

[CRNDLSM]

I find it interesting to read the critiques and suggestions from all over, you can see a lot of personal style in those as well. My creativity typically comes in uncontrollable bursts and I find ways to bide time while I wait for it, it's like everything I do has a different reasoning behind it. One time I tried to write a poem in the style of Todd, and really tried to workshop it from people's suggestions. I wasn't really serious about it but I was taking it seriously if that makes sense. I'm proud of it, I like all the activity you have brought to this forum, too, unique perspective and style. I've been pretty quiet just making my weekly music posts until I'm out of songs. Or the next troll comes along.

[Quixilated]

This is not a paid service or a made to order service.  Members are volunteers who offer their time freely and kindly.  Not all comments on poems will be what you hoped to get.  Not all comments you give on poems will be what others hope to get.  But it is all offered with good intentions and free of charge.  If you don’t like the critique, you don’t have to abide by it.  However, it was still someone’s time out of their day that they spent reading your poem and offering you feedback. “Thank you” is the only acceptable response.

[busker]

Imagine that I wanted to make a movie full of 90's pop culture references that others may or may not get. Should I not make that movie because not everyone will get every reference? Surely a well done movie would have something to offer even if folks didn't get each and every reference. 

You should definitely make the movie. It won't work for everyone, but it'll work for others.

Can I tell you a story? I had a piece here once that I would point to as a good representation of my overall aesthetic. I tried and tried to revise it because I had people badgering me that they weren't 'getting the point,' 'couldn't find the meaning,' as if poetry has a Point, Meaning, Truth, Answers...all the capital letters. My poetry is intended to introduce a scene or the framework of a story (and it's not important that every reference be grasped to take something away) -- it's snapshots, it's impressions, not explication. There is meaning, but not one single meaning that, if you don't get that singular meaning, then you've failed or the author has failed. At any rate, I revised this particular poem to absolute death over the objections of others because I believed that I had to reach every single reader or I had failed my job as an author. I tried to make up story lines out of nowhere (that never existed to begin with) but it didn't work, and I almost destroyed the poem in the process. Finally, Leanne told me that it was a good poem and locked it in a cabinet where I couldn't destroy it.

I don't know about how much Leanne liked it - clearly, she liked it enough to spotlight it.
I absolutely loved it, as did many others.
Most of the time, revisions for someone who writes as well as you do, would be tinkering at the margins. Changing a poem wholesale based on feedback on this or any other forum is useless 99% of the time.
Take the feedback and bin it or use it, it's up to you.
I don't write as well as you do, but I use the same principles

My pieces aren't riddles, didactic, or rhetoric. There's really no way to fail as a reader when you come to my poems other than to get frustrated that there's no singular point (or, justifiably, that the ride wasn't pleasant enough from an artistic viewpoint to justify multiple reads). If I've done my job, I've created a world where you can touch things, play around, look around and wonder. That's a successful poem for me. There's no reason to feel stupid or dejected if you don't "get the point" because there's no one single meaning. It's a snapshot to facilitate the imaginative wanderings of the reader. 

Still, sometimes some reader won't get it.

I don't belong in this forum if people are not interested in this kind of poetry. No hard feelings, but we will part ways. I will meet you in your aesthetic if I know what it is. I will help you try to achieve your own goals on your own terms. I welcome people to talk about what good poetry is for you so that I know how to help you. For instance, I would never badger Mark to include more layers of complexity or add a little mystery to his writing because I know that it's not his style. 

That's up to you.
My observation is that internet poetry fora are dying out anyway.
Most people these days access the internet on their mobile phones, and lengthy, thought out feedback such as what you get on this forum is a dying form of communication.
Emojis on instagram are what's there out there.

I am an intentional author who doesn't just slap something that I wrote on the back of a napkin and then put it into serious, full of half-baked thoughts and typos. People can help me edit by telling me what is working for them and why or I can't revise.  

I am the other kind - I slap something that I wrote on the back of a napkin and post it on this forum.
But regardless, the feedback you receive is a function of:

1. when it (the poem) was posted
2. who was free at the time, or in the window between it being posted and moving down the list because of more recent posts
3. who was free, read it, and then had the time to respond
4. how much time he had, and whether he could articulate it properly at the time
5. whether you liked it or not

Perhaps 1-5 could be greatly improved if we had more members, but there's not a lot that can  be done about it. It's one of this, the Gestapo over at PFFA, a bunch of other online fora of the same or lesser quality, or instagram poetry.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular. It's how I've been feeling since I got here, and it's just now coming to a head because I'm at an inflection point. Writing is a solitary activity, and I need companionship along the way. I recognize that people might hate me from the 'before times,' or think I'm an un-talented, overly precious drama queen. Many people have come to this conclusion. What I want more than anything from this forum is to be well read, and I would do the same for you.

Dunno where you get all the hating etc from
Yes, you're a drama queen
You're also a very talented poet. I think that's obvious.
It's great having you here on this forum because your poems and crits are top notch, despite the occasional meltdown.

[Wjames]

Make what you want to make, if someone is suggesting that you make something else, their suggestion is irrelevant (not offensive).

If someone gives you something that helps you make what you want to make, use it.

I think that the nature of a forum based around critique is people will focus more on what they don't like about the poem rather than what they do. The fact that someone spends some time thinking about a poem, and what might be improved, tells you that they like something about the poem.

If I read something here and think it's rubbish, I won't comment on it at all (there are plenty of things I like and don't comment on as well, but I am lazy). I think it's safe to assume that if someone offers their thoughts, they think the content is worthwile.

[brynmawr1]

I think this issue has come up a lot recently in different contexts.  I have come to realize that crits are like data points.  You can get some information from one point (of view) but it can give a very distorted picture and isn't always that helpful.  The other problem is when a poem gets lots of suggestions the tendency is to try to treat each suggestion separately when, and this was my breakthrough, they should be taken as a set to learn which issues are brought up by multiple people and then focus on those things.  More often than not, it seems, it will be your favorite part of the poem and it will kill you to change or cut it.  However, if only one person gets stuck on a part of the poem, and you feel it is an important element of your vision have the confidence to leave it in.  Most of us will never write the perfect poem.

[rowens]

I was once given some thought-provoking feedback from someone here on the forum named milo. He asked me in a thread for another poem what would happen if I stopped trying to explain and learned to trust my reader. I found this advice compelling; however it might be one of those magical, milo tricks that only he can get away with.

I wouldn't trust a reader of my poems as far as I could throw them. I've never met someone who has read my poems in person, so I can't throw them. I've met people in person before they read my poems.

[brynmawr1]

I was once given some thought-provoking feedback from someone here on the forum named milo. He asked me in a thread for another poem what would happen if I stopped trying to explain and learned to trust my reader. I found this advice compelling; however it might be one of those magical, milo tricks that only he can get away with.

I wouldn't trust a reader of my poems as far as I could throw them. I've never met someone who has read my poems in person, so I can't throw them. I've met people in person before they read my poems.

Not sure why you attributed this quote to me. Pretty sure it was Lizzie.

[rowens]

There is a controversy in the Magickal Community, which is about 72 miles south of the Gay Community if you stick to the Interstate, about certain writers not giving credit to the demonic and angelic sources of the 16th century for the Rituals they are reproducing in their books.


This has been kind of like this post and others about references. Also about quotations and allusions and copyrights.

Here's a short list of people who used direct or indirect phrases with no interest in giving credit: Shakespeare, Nietzsche, Leopardi, Emerson, Rimbaud, T. S. Eliot, Michael Albright.


They didn't care whether you knew that they were repeating phrases or not.

As long as the work was organic, felt right. Like The Bible.


If you want your writing to be good as the Bible or Shakespeare, unless you're Anne Carson or that Foster Wallace guy who's famous for pulling a Cobain, and if you can write more than ten good lines of your own ingenium, forget copyright laws and what you learned in college.


Swiping a line here and there, if it's the best fit, is safe as houses. Is as much a part of baseball, I mean, poetry, as stealing bases is in baseball, or using a steel folding chair in a pro wrestling match. 

Some books have whole chapters on the defects and wrongs of the great poets. Maybe plagiarism will be one of your great faults. Like the Buddha says, Use what works. 



People might bring up the rules of the site. I'm not breaking the rules of the site. I'm talking about poetry.

[Lizzie]

I was kind of hoping that this thread would rest in peace, as I've said my piece. However, such is the nature of the site that any old thread can and will be resurrected from time to time to edify and damn both deserving and unfortunate souls alike. So, now we talk about it, I suppose. And, now that I've said "poor unfortunate souls," I'm plagiarizing The Little Mermaid. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your comment -- plagiarism vs. Plagiarism (the latter being a sin if not a crime). I'm assuming that you're not saying that I Plagiarize -- I'd be the worst criminal ever if I stole others' work only to come away with the drivel that I insist on posting. My work is certainly not as idiosyncratic as yours; however, I feel no particular need to entirely re-invent the wheel of poetry. I'm happy to let you and Hopkins do that important work.

[rowens]

It's almost impossible to plagiarize poetry, as most poetry is only understandable if you've already read everything that's ever been written. Plagiarism is only successful if the reader is weak. So, plagiarism should be blamed on the reader.

---

As to your other query: When someone seems to be talking critically, never assume that they are talking about you until it becomes undeniable that they are. And, unless the criticism leads to imprisonment, mutilation or death, always admit to what you're being accused of, whether you're guilty of it or not, and act all nonchalant about it.

[rayheinrich]

"You talkin' to me?
You talkin' to me?
Then who the hell else are you talkin' to?
You talkin' to me?
Well, I'm the only one here.
Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?
- Robert DeNiro in Taxi Driver.