Poetry Workshopping

[btrudo]

Things to consider:
1. Level of Discussion:
A poetry workshop has lots of give and take. Commentators read the work and offer their insight into the piece. Some of the insight may be relevant. The author inputs his or her take on the poem and addresses areas of concern; after all, the author probably has had a longer relationship with the poem than the commentators have had. The author may even want further elaboration about comments. Authors NEED to do this. Then, in a serious workshop, the commentators attempt to elaborate. It is a constant give-and-take process. Yes, the poem needs to stand on its own, but the exchange between the commentators and the author can greatly aid the development of a work.

Some of what this board appears to want in the process of mentoring should be happening in other forums. The place has seemed to fall into the cycle of "post/comment/edit/comment/edit" without much discussion throughout the process.

2. Ego:
Most poetry workshops realize that the poet needs to check his or her ego at the door. Well, commentators also need to check their ego at the door too. There is nothing wrong in challenging a comment, but you should take the time to understand what was written. Commentators should not hide behind the mask of "serious critique."

3. Perspective:
Commentators should be open-minded. Being people with our own histories, we are often trapped in our ways of thinking and it is difficult to have an open mind. Commentators, in fact, should begin reading a work with the expectation that the poem is perfect, meaning that poem does exactly what is trying to do. Part of the responsibilities of a commentator is to examine what the poem is trying to do and analyze if the poem is accomplishing that. The responsibility of a commentator is not to assess whether or not he or she likes a poem.

This board realizes that last point, but doesn't realize the full implications of that. If you don't like a poem and blabber something about "faux poeticism", you have not commented. All you have done is quite ignorantly labeled something as bad; you have said nothing about poetry. You have judged without going through the process of the trial. It is the responsibility of the commentator to read the poem. If he or she is unable to do that, it is probably best to not comment at all. This is a rampant problem in online poetry forums, but interestingly enough, this is not as much of a problem in face-to-face workshops. Perhaps the physical nature of being with others, who take time to examine a work, forces commentators to not look at the door or their watch and actually READ the poem.

As a cautionary note, you better pay close attention to how you treat beginners who come to the board. If you don't treat them well, the board will die. This could be quite literally, as in no one posts anymore, or metaphorically, in the sense that creative process steps like a horse chained to the mill. Think of that horse walking the same circle day after day. New people offer fresh perspective and much needed energy to a poetry forum.

[milo]

I would think one might consider learning the difference between "commenter" and commentator as an early step in the process.

[btrudo]

com·men·ta·tor
[kom-uhn-tey-ter]
noun
1.
a person who discusses news, sports events, weather, or the like, as on television or radio.

2.
a person who makes commentaries.


com·men·tar·y
[kom-uhn-ter-ee]
noun, plural com·men·tar·ies.
1.
a series of comments, explanations, or annotations: a commentary on the Bible; news followed by a commentary.

2.
an explanatory essay or treatise: a commentary on a play; Blackstone's commentaries on law.

3.
anything serving to illustrate a point, prompt a realization, or exemplify, especially in the case of something unfortunate: The dropout rate is a sad commentary on our school system.

4.
Usually, commentaries. records of facts or events: Commentaries written by Roman lawyers give us information on how their courts functioned.

[milo]

You don't need to publicize the learning process, just actually learn.

[Leanne]

If you post a poem and then eagerly await feedback on said poem, only to have commenters take their nitpickery of one another's points so seriously that they forget there was a poem posted in the first place, it can become somewhat tedious. This is the reason we ask that commenters take said nitpickery to another thread as it rarely ends up contributing to the progression of the poem. Once you've pointed out a weakness, especially in Serious Workshopping, it's reasonable to expect that either the poet asks for clarification or the poet can use his/her actual brain to determine whether or not the advice is sound.

The number of edits a poet performs is really up to the poet, not the commenters. If a poet finds merit in a number of successive comments, it is not unreasonable to expect several edits in quick succession. Some poets like to wait until a variety of viewpoints are in. The only expectation is that poets WILL listen to feedback and WILL edit if the feedback suggests that it is in the interests of the poem.

Personally, when offering critique I read none of the preceding comments. I critique the poem. It interests me not in the slightest whether other commenters agree with me, or I with them. My responsibility in a workshop is to enter into a dialogue with the poem and nothing else.

[tectak]

com·men·ta·tor
[kom-uhn-tey-ter]
noun
1.
a person who discusses news, sports events, weather, or the like, as on television or radio.

2.
a person who makes commentaries.


com·men·tar·y
[kom-uhn-ter-ee]
noun, plural com·men·tar·ies.
1.
a series of comments, explanations, or annotations: a commentary on the Bible; news followed by a commentary.

2.
an explanatory essay or treatise: a commentary on a play; Blackstone's commentaries on law.

3.
anything serving to illustrate a point, prompt a realization, or exemplify, especially in the case of something unfortunate: The dropout rate is a sad commentary on our school system.

4.
Usually, commentaries. records of facts or events: Commentaries written by Roman lawyers give us information on how their courts functioned.

Oh please. Enough already. I won't sleep tonight!

[milo]

com·men·ta·tor
[kom-uhn-tey-ter]
noun
1.
a person who discusses news, sports events, weather, or the like, as on television or radio.

2.
a person who makes commentaries.


com·men·tar·y
[kom-uhn-ter-ee]
noun, plural com·men·tar·ies.
1.
a series of comments, explanations, or annotations: a commentary on the Bible; news followed by a commentary.

2.
an explanatory essay or treatise: a commentary on a play; Blackstone's commentaries on law.

3.
anything serving to illustrate a point, prompt a realization, or exemplify, especially in the case of something unfortunate: The dropout rate is a sad commentary on our school system.

4.
Usually, commentaries. records of facts or events: Commentaries written by Roman lawyers give us information on how their courts functioned.

Oh please. Enough already. I won't sleep tonight!

write a treatise on a poem in mild, that should have us all nodding off . . .

[Leanne]

If everyone, including mods, could refrain from being sidetracked by trivialities and actually engage in productive discussion, we'd all get along a whole lot better/ admin

[Todd]

Commentators, in fact, should begin reading a work with the expectation that the poem is perfect, meaning that poem does exactly what is trying to do.

I'm not sure how much I will contribute to all the points raised, but I do not approach any poem with an expectation that it is perfect. The very act of putting it in a workshop would lead me to believe quite the opposite.

I approach the poem hoping that it will be excellent, and noting each place I subjectively think it falls short--which always disappoints me. I try to be careful in the critiquing process to stay true to the writer's style and not rewrite their poem (which is an area that scares me about too much back and forth commentary).

I guess my overall thought to this entire thread is that feedback is a gift. I don't believe the person offering critique is obligated in any way to the writer. The writer is not obligated to agree with the critique, but they should recognize the time spent on their poem.

My initial thoughts

[rowens]

You know, the ones that don't stay long. They post a poem first, because they don't know if it's good or horrible.

But when they start talking, it's easier to see how ignorant they are. They just want to know if their poem is good first. If their poem turns out to be good, then they feel more open, and can comment on others.

It's easier to post a poem first. If it's treated like shit, they can disappear. Regroup. Get a new user name. But when they start talking poetry, giving their opinionated critiques, they're doomed.

It's hard to know anything these days. Everything looks so easy.

[milo]

You know, the ones that don't stay long. They post a poem first, because they don't know if it's good or horrible.

But when they start talking, it's easier to see how ignorant they are. They just want to know if their poem is good first. If their poem turns out to be good, then they feel more open, and can comment on others.

It's easier to post a poem first. If it's treated like shit, they can disappear. Regroup. Get a new user name. But when they start talking poetry, giving their opinionated critiques, they're doomed.

It's hard to know anything these days. Everything looks so easy.

I would think that there are so many poetry forums online these days that people just bounce around until they find one they fit in.

We have a pretty particular personality here at the pig and a lot of people don't (and won't) fit in. While it's possible to change the personality of the site to conform to the wishes of every passing poetaster, it would kill the site as it is now.

[rowens]

I don't care about them. I don't care much about myself.

If they were worth reading, they'd find some way of being worth reading.


One day.

[billy]

i start off expecting a poem to be shit. seldom is a poem perfect, not here not anywhere. if it is perfect, then it opens up for me and i am pleased. it's only happened a few times here. let's face it. most of the online poets are not seamus heaney god bless his irish soul. no they're people who decided they want to write poetry. the idea is to workshop a poem to some kind of readable quality, perfection be it before or after a read and various edits is just to much to hope for. sorry but i'm a realist. we have four or five people on the site who are capable of writing poetry of such a high calibre.

i love it when a poet edits, they can edit 9 or 10 times for me. this is why where here, so poets can improve, i think we're doing pretty well as far as it goes. even those who post and leave have learned something...they learn that there are serious workshops out there and can always return when they get rid of ego boosting.

i'm not sure the poem should be discussed as they can be in the real world. here we give our pov and that is the poet wishes open to discussion. the poet is one who decides if a pov is valid or not. i personally have learnt a lot from this site. if anyone comes here and learn nothing, they're probably on the wrong site.

[ChristopherSea]

i start off expecting a poem to be shit. seldom is a poem perfect, not here not anywhere. if it is perfect, then it opens up for me and i am pleased. it's only happened a few times here. let's face it. most of the online poets are not seamus heaney god bless his irish soul. no they're people who decided they want to write poetry. the idea is to workshop a poem to some kind of readable quality, perfection be it before or after a read and various edits is just to much to hope for. sorry but i'm a realist. we have four or five people on the site who are capable of writing poetry of such a high calibre.

i love it when a poet edits, they can edit 9 or 10 times for me. this is why where here, so poets can improve, i think we're doing pretty well as far as it goes. even those who post and leave have learned something...they learn that there are serious workshops out there and can always return when they get rid of ego boosting.

i'm not sure the poem should be discussed as they can be in the real world. here we give our pov and that is the poet wishes open to discussion. the poet is one who decides if a pov is valid or not. i personally have learnt a lot from this site. if anyone comes here and learn nothing, they're probably on the wrong site.

Amen brother!

---

It is better than working in a complete vaccum. It takes many edits and sometimes months to perfect a poem. It is important to know how others react and what they see as problem areas. I keep all versions to follow the sculpting process. Ultimately, it is up tp the poetic to take or leave any advise. Sometimes you go back to the original, but you are aware of stanzas or lines may need to be worked on by having it read by others.