So when I began writing, I was really proud of some of the work. One year later, I shook my head in disgrace and thought: Seriously, wtf?

I've been writing poetry for three years now. Here's a problem I constantly encounter: It ends up sounding cheesy. This dawned on me (again) after reading an insightful critique on a recent post. This critique was a lot more helpful than I thought a critique could be. Pretty blunt.

My serious question is probably easy to answer, but in the midst of writing, how do you know what you're writing is a piece of... I don't know, cheese? Why am I so eager to jump on trite, cliche subject-matter?

The subject matter is not nearly so problematic as the way a poem is written. Ezra Pound used to thump the table saying poetry must be new, new, new -- with every generation, new.

Most of the big topics are timeless, but there's always a fresh angle, unexpected comparisons to make it come alive again. It's really HOW you write about things that's key.

I've never found a way to know mid-composition that something's shite. I think it's good to let poems rest for a spell before choosing to post. I often see my work differently in a week/month.

Write drunk, revise sober.

After a week or more, yes, I find some new angle to put on an old draft. After two months, though... If I haven't realized what I consider great will be torn to shreds, I wonder if I'm as talented as I've been told I am.

I thank people who are critical and forward. It feels like "compliments" have held me back all this time. I'm glad I came here, though.

(04-01-2017, 04:42 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  Write drunk, revise sober.

Or stoned, apparently.

When you first start writing, there's always a good percentage of stuff that's pure cheese. It's because no matter how much poetry you've consumed yourself, your production is initially based on other people's ideas of what a poem ought to look like/ feel like/ sound like. Recognising this is a vital step and frankly, we see a lot of people come through here who refuse to accept that and just want to keep writing what they're writing without change because they're super amazing and we should love them lots.

So, you're already ahead of those tossers. Exposing your writing to a discerning audience, one that's seen an awful lot of what it doesn't ever want to see again and is excited by fresh ideas, is the best way to develop a voice that you can be proud of. Keep it yours. You don't need to accept everything a critic says -- because they're human, and subjective -- but listening to people whose opinions you value, or who you think are pretty awful but they maybe know a thing or two about poetry, is vital to improvement.

And give yourself a break. You will write bad stuff -- everyone does, even the best poets. Just don't let that define you, and never get too comfortable. Poetry is not a sport for the faint of heart

(04-01-2017, 04:46 AM)burrealist Wrote:  I thank people who are critical and forward. It feels like "compliments" have held me back all this time. I'm glad I came here, though.

Praise is death for the serious writer. It's really nice and will sometimes get you laid, but at the end of the day it's not helpful and you will come to distrust it. Sorry.

Yes, my friends did not understand why I was upset after they gave me praise. I tried explaining it, but they didn't get it.


Thanks, everyone!

"This is an amazing poem" is no more valuable than saying "this poem is shit". Unless it's got some detail, it's worthless.

(04-01-2017, 04:34 AM)burrealist Wrote:  So when I began writing, I was really proud of some of the work. One year later, I shook my head in disgrace and thought: Seriously, wtf?

I've been writing poetry for three years now. Here's a problem I constantly encounter: It ends up sounding cheesy. This dawned on me (again) after reading an insightful critique on a recent post. This critique was a lot more helpful than I thought a critique could be. Pretty blunt.

My serious question is probably easy to answer, but in the midst of writing, how do you know what you're writing is a piece of... I don't know, cheese? Why am I so eager to jump on trite, cliche subject-matter?

To avoid writing cheese read/crit my stuff. There's Livarot and Dairylea....
Best,
tectak

Sometimes praise comes just because your work is even slightly less shit than the writers you're with.

IME, all poems are worth working on. Keep what critics like and rework what they don't. The poem may still be shit after five edit/crit cycles but I've learned some thing about that particular poem and the bigger picture, my own and the way my impressions land on readers. Sometimes I go back to the original and now know better how to keep and tweak it. On occassion it turns out there really was a decent core in there and I can end with something decent, but the process is a delicious torture that interests me, it's a way I enjoy spending my time. I may be two steps forward, one back, but in my world this is fun.

To your other question: in the midst of writing how can you determine if its good or not. You can't. Well, at least I can't. I need time to sort it out for me. If you look at earlier work and cringe it only means you're getting better. I simply assume that most early drafts are the best I can do at the moment and are likely awful. Your standards for what's good should continue to rise (probably ahead of your ability to execute).

Oh, and yes unqualified praise can be an STD to writing. The process of receiving it might feel good at first but it's followed by an uncomfortable burning sensation that makes you regret your choices.

@Todd

And what a thread for March 31. Tomorrow starts NaPM when we attempt to somehow spit out 30 poems in 30 days. I challenge any member to write more cheese than I do.

Warning: April is not the time to compare yourself to some others on the site who have skills some of us can't even imagine. My tactic is to just write and sometimes something comes of it.

(04-01-2017, 05:36 AM)Todd Wrote:  Oh, and yes unqualified praise can be an STD to writing. The process of receiving it might feel good at first but it's followed by an uncomfortable burning sensation that makes you regret your choices.

I think I'll consider this for my next piece. Thanks!

(04-01-2017, 05:34 AM)ellajam Wrote:  Sometimes praise comes just because your work is even slightly less shit than the writers you're with.

IME, all poems are worth working on. Keep what critics like and rework what they don't. The poem may still be shit after five edit/crit cycles but I've learned some thing about that particular poem and the bigger picture, my own and the way my impressions land on readers. Sometimes I go back to the original and now know better how to keep and tweak it. On occassion it turns out there really was a decent core in there and I can end with something decent, but the process is a delicious torture that interests me, it's a way I enjoy spending my time. I may be two steps forward, one back, but in my world this is fun.

I couldn't agree more. It saddens and frustrates me when I see new poets give up (either on a piece, or on poetry completely) the second they get a bit of negative feedback. This isn't an all or nothing business, this poetry thing.

There's always value in the work of it, even if it's just to learn to recognize what bad writing is so that you know better what not to do the next time around. A lot of people are not serious enough about poetry to put that kind of persistent effort into it. It takes true desire, ambition, and patience to weather the tough times of continually not achieving the quality you're aiming for.

(04-01-2017, 05:30 AM)tectak Wrote:  To avoid writing cheese read/crit my stuff. There's Livarot and Dairylea....
Best,
tectak

Is cheese a good lax?

In any case, I remember I gave you one critique, and I liked it. A few spots I disagreed with your choices, but I wouldn't go so far as to compare it to supermarket crap.

I try to keep Todd's sig in mind always. We all have to have our visions for our poems shattered sometimes in order to allow the poem to become what it wants to be. Friends often don't want to be the ones to shatter a poem -- there's a natural instinct to preserve the relationship. I tried to get my friends to crit my work when I first started, but I learned that I couldn't get truly honest critique from those who have something to lose by pissing me off. The veterans here don't give a shit about that, and that's a good thing -- that's why it works.

(04-01-2017, 06:02 AM)Lizzie Wrote:  

(04-01-2017, 05:49 AM)ellajam Wrote:  April is not the time to compare yourself to some others on the site who have skills some of us can't even imagine.

Easy for the skilled to say....

Harumph.

Bullshit, I'd never post a one if I held myself to the standards some of our members do. The reading is so great in April, it's humbling but a privledge to be part of, we always get such a great variety on any given day.

(04-01-2017, 06:15 AM)ellajam Wrote:  

(04-01-2017, 06:02 AM)Lizzie Wrote:  

(04-01-2017, 05:49 AM)ellajam Wrote:  April is not the time to compare yourself to some others on the site who have skills some of us can't even imagine.

Easy for the skilled to say....

Harumph.

Bullshit, I'd never post a one if I held myself to the standards some of our members do. The reading is so great in April, it's humbling but a privledge to be part of, we always get such a great variety on any given day.

Ha, I changed my response because I realized it was whiny crap. I don't know how not to play the comparison game, but it's cool that you have such a zen attitude about it.

Enough about me, let's talk about you baby....

(04-01-2017, 05:30 AM)tectak Wrote:  To avoid writing cheese read/crit my stuff. There's Livarot and Dairylea....
Best,
tectak

I love that you're not above begging for feedback Tom, you bloody cheese whore.