(04-30-2013, 05:27 AM)justcloudy Wrote:  imo, rewriting depends on the person whose poem you're rewriting. if they're cool with it, go for it. to me it just feels like a frustrated "HERE! this is how you should do it!" which isn't what poetry is about anyway. but I've been lucky, don't think anyone has ever rewritten anything of mine, so I'm not complaining or anything, just observing. =]

what i notice a lot of time is that a partial rewrite is the only way of showing what you mean. in a line ny line you can suggest an alternative word etc, i often leave feedback on poetry i see with the most problems. the poetry i like gets a lot less constructive feedback (observations are good )

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(04-30-2013, 03:00 AM)newsclippings Wrote:  Sometimes I'm very mean. Most of the time I am honest and brief, but if I'm giving feedback in mild or serious I tend to be as thorough as I am capable.
I'm not a very wordy person, as some of you may have already noticed.

that's the same for many, and it's the honest part that counts.

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(04-30-2013, 03:02 AM)cidermaid Wrote:  I 'm a natural back patter and normally lean towards the warm and fluffy, but I can have the odd moment of being sharper.
I find crit in the novice section the hardest, because i don't want to damage anyone who is just starting out...I end up writing too much and then adding in a warm and fluffy conditioner to make it all better.
Perversly I find doing the deeper crit is easier esp in the serious section as i don't have to hold back on a flow of thought. (Assuming I can work out what the hell the poem is about because half the time I'm not up on the subject / idea and I struggle to connect).
I do admire those with the ability to read and crit even on subjects they know nothing about - I find it very hard.
Like Mikey I have been having a bit of a breather. I was in a real rut (in life and in my writing) and was close to running off again to hide, but I'm glad i didn't -this place is one of the few good things going on in my life at the mo.

often it's not about working it out, it's just about what you see.. honest feedback teaches the novice poet to grow a thicker skin and realise that feedback is an integral part of workshopping and improving how we write poetry.

I think re writing exercises are fantastic development for writers, as are "write in the style of" exercises though both are difficult for various different reasons. It is only tender egos and the fear of treading upon others' tender egos that keeps the practices from being more prevalent and I have seen some sites outright ban the practice.

I don't really rewrite here and post it (though I rewrite a ton of it privately for practice) but in a different group I once participated in, once a person started the rewrites, it went almost viral and we would have sometimes hundreds of rewrite until it was unrecognizable. I don't remember anyone getting upset but I may have been lost in the moment.

I try and stay away from serious because I don't have much to offer when it comes to critique at this level, most other readers can vocalise what I see in a clever constructive way and usually beat me to it. there is a down side to this as I have now stopped posting in serious and have lost the workshop element of the site that meant a great deal to me. However I also buy in to the ethos that you must give to receive and at this moment my comments are finding their way to Mild and Novice, fun and Misc. The gift of change is obviously my own but at present I cannot give peoples work the time it deserves so I give what I can and take what I can get, hopefully this will change in the future. I have a tendency to want to rewrite and tickle balls so I always try to repress this constantly I don't always succeed. TOMH

(04-30-2013, 07:14 AM)milo Wrote:  I think re writing exercises are fantastic development for writers, as are "write in the style of" exercises though both are difficult for various different reasons. It is only tender egos and the fear of treading upon others' tender egos that keeps the practices from being more prevalent and I have seen some sites outright ban the practice.

I don't really rewrite here and post it (though I rewrite a ton of it privately for practice) but in a different group I once participated in, once a person started the rewrites, it went almost viral and we would have sometimes hundreds of rewrite until it was unrecognizable. I don't remember anyone getting upset but I may have been lost in the moment.

homage poetry is common, i can't see anything wrong in rewriting a classic or even non classic poem as long as it's really a rewrite and not a partial copy. i've don an odd carlos williams remake myself. but i'm not sure it was that was being referenced in this thread. doing a rewrite of someone's poem just because one's capable and posting it in the same thread isn't something that should ever be practised. doing a rewrite of 'she walks in beauty' or some such poem is on the other hand an excellent way to learn poetry. feedback's priority is to help the poet reach their full potential.

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(04-30-2013, 10:23 AM)TimeOnMyHands Wrote:  I try and stay away from serious because I don't have much to offer when it comes to critique at this level, most other readers can vocalise what I see in a clever constructive way and usually beat me to it. there is a down side to this as I have now stopped posting in serious and have lost the workshop element of the site that meant a great deal to me. However I also buy in to the ethos that you must give to receive and at this moment my comments are finding their way to Mild and Novice, fun and Misc. The gift of change is obviously my own but at present I cannot give peoples work the time it deserves so I give what I can and take what I can get, hopefully this will change in the future. I have a tendency to want to rewrite and tickle balls so I always try to repress this constantly I don't always succeed. TOMH

i'm okay with someone posting in serious if they give feedback elsewhere such as mild or novice. one way to do it if you feel guilt could be to give two lots of feedback elsewhere fore each poem you place in serious

Hi Billy
I am just wondering what the original thought behind starting this thread is? I don't mean this in a negative way, because I think that for many reasons there is a lot of good in allowing people to speak on these things and receive an answer. (Which I can see you have been spending time, diligently insuring that everyone who posts, receives at least one comment in return – which, ball tickling and flag waving aside , is really nice of you ). I think I have spoken often enough of my enthusiasm and support for the site to be able to have a bit of slack extended if I manage to mess up how I set this out and it reads negatively. My apologies if it does.
I can see two distinct things happening in this thread and I'm not sure they are mutually compatible.
The first is, that this seems to be a fishing trip to find out how we view and treat our approaches to the different crit threads and then by this opening, a means to correct any misunderstandings in a non-confrontational way. (Offering affirmation and encouragement as you go). This can only be good and I'm sure some useful thoughts and quotes will pop up that can be included in the various help pages.
The second is a little more complex and I’m not sure I can adequately explain what I mean. (Which probably means I’m going to get verbal diarrhoea again).
The nature of the beast is somewhere within the multi-layered different personalities we all represent and the psychology of "why be a poet?" It is obvious from even a quick scan of the threads that poetry attracts more than it's fair share of wounded, lost or chip on shoulder personality types (I include myself in at least 2 of those). Obviously the poetry written is / can be a vent for the pressure.
All great so far. Some people can distance themselves from their poems; they vomit the emotion or thought onto the paper and walk away, others remain invested or attached - so occasionally we get a reaction to a crit ... still no problem, all perfectly healthy and understandable. Then we come to the offering crit for others and it would appear, if you take the show of answers here as representative of the group overall, that quite a large % of us have issues with offering (rather than receiving) crit. (But still no compromise - the thread is a great way to deal with this).
I'm going on too much and have failed to get to the heart of it.
I guess what I am picking up, is that the first few replies and responses were obviously fresh and as such got the lion’s share of the affirmation - then - we're poets! We all know we have to say it in a new way, so each progressive reply has added something "new" to the table. This is what I did, if I had got in earlier my offering would have been nearly identical to what Mikey wrote. The thing is, that it looks like the flow on this thread is working it’s way through the range of the crit threads. We have done encouragement and the slightly fluffy….”we really value your contributions” then we got the equivalent of the mild crit section… “that’s nice –But” It feels like the only place left to go (if we are going to be able to keep it “new & fresh”) is into the serious or misc sections reply style. (We had a spot in the fun section… with Abu if anyone missed it). Now I’ve said this in a rather flippant way just to get it out there and don’t mean it as an attack – l set out at the beginning what I thought the thread was aiming to do. And now I’m making a right hash of explaining myself!
Ok, If the majority of us were honest we would all like to be included in the “we value..” comments and I’m sure you would be quick to reply that the site is only good because of the contributions and involvement of the members. Concerning giving crit.: People who have a life response of “I’m worth it” and are generally full of their own self worth and they stand there in their rightness sure in the knowledge of this rightness (west wing-ish), some of us slide from one side to the other (…got to give you something to poke fun at) and the rest of us sit there in our wrongness (and no amount of being told to get over it will instantly cure us of the habit) It has been thumped and dripped into us over many years and will take time to tempt us out of our respective defence positions. (and -Once more this is why I sing the praises of this site). If an individual can survive the initial bucket of cold water and hang in there then I believe this is one of the most positive and healing environments that such a person could hang out in. But it takes time.
I’m not sure I’ve moved the discussion forward, perhaps someone else can see where I was trying to go and rescue me.
I think It is our collective differences and approaches to life that makes the site and the crit sections work so well, but I guess I also feel that for some, the road is a bit more of a trial and there is quite a lot of pressure to conform and perform at a uniform level of “rightness” Some of the posts, to my ear and eye have been trying to express this, but because we are all being new and fresh in our posts I got the impresion that the cry from the heart (to be understood) was being lost in translation. Not that you or anyone should feel in anyway inclined to deal with the problems of others. Just sort of putting a flow of thought out there.
Hope this makes some sense. (I’m not convinced it does)