(original thread
here. /ella)
This is special. I read it earlier a couple times and have had it in the back of my mind all day. But it will take some time for me to get my mind around it, after which I might hope to have some substantive comments.
For now, I wish to ask you: Is this not a poem that you feel needs to incorporate notes? If not, I would be interested to learn why you feel notes are not needed. It's not a cut and dry case, for sure. Eliot gave us no notes in his initial publication of The Waste Land (in his The Criterion). In subsequent publication in the US, he added notes, which have become an important part of the poem itself. Just interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter of notes.
Thanks.
Mahjong.
Personally, I hate notes in poems. Poems aren't lessons -- and we do have Mr Google at our fingertips.
A poem should stand alone and at least in one layer speak to the reader without the need for a back-story or bibliography. If it has nothing that the reader can grab hold of without notes, then it is not successful -- at least for that reader. It is always possible that someone with a very alien set of experiences will not respond to a poem that another reader might appreciate fully on a number of levels.
Where do we stop with notes? Personally I don't have any frame of reference for drug taking or one night stands, but there are a lot of poems that seem to want me to read about those things -- would I be more inclined to do so if each metaphor were explained?
Unlikely.
I wasn't asking for exegesis, or explanation of metaphor. I do have access to the internet, obviously. But I refuse to own an iPhone and often I take (sometimes printed out) hard copies of 'stuff' to places where I can read them without internet distraction (not easy to do, as I live in Silicon Valley!).
"Where do we stop with notes?" is a great point. But then, where do we stop with verse? Notes can be a part of a poem/verse; they bring the author into the poem, IF that's a transport the author might wish to make. I wasn't demanding notes. But this is a poem whose difficulty seems to reside most in its being infused at every turn with Filipino mythology. Eliot infused The Waste Land with abundant references to the Western literary canon, and he ultimately felt it necessary to supply the reader with notes.
Your post is most helpful in explaining why you chose to exile my post to a forum. Fair enough. Thank you!
I split this off because there was no actual critique so I couldn't let it stay in Serious, but it was a thoughtful post that I didn't want to delete so I thought it might be discussed here. That's all.
I too think a poem should stand alone. That's why I noted that notes can be considered as part of the poem, from certain critical perspectives (Eliot's notes are considered by some to be a component of his poem, The Waste Land).
At least now I've learned that, here, critique concerning notes is not 'actual critique'. That's why moderation is so indispensable, otherwise it's 'turtles all the way down'*.
Forum poster's notes:
* See Mr Google for meaning of 'turtles all the way down', but only if need be.
;-)
(11-23-2016, 01:44 PM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, I hate notes in poems. Poems aren't lessons -- and we do have Mr Google at our fingertips.
A poem should stand alone and at least in one layer speak to the reader without the need for a back-story or bibliography. If it has nothing that the reader can grab hold of without notes, then it is not successful -- at least for that reader. It is always possible that someone with a very alien set of experiences will not respond to a poem that another reader might appreciate fully on a number of levels.
Where do we stop with notes? Personally I don't have any frame of reference for drug taking or one night stands, but there are a lot of poems that seem to want me to read about those things -- would I be more inclined to do so if each metaphor were explained?
Unlikely.
Thanks for considering the thing! I suppose my latest problem is the level of referentiality I've been infusing in my stuff (I think it's me compensating for a rarity of lyricism). The other four-part-piece I posted here actually had notes, but even then it got too high up in Valentinus' philosophy to work -- I'm still figuring out how to clean it up. As for this, I consider it a good deal less taxing, since this isn't a mix-and-match: the references here are mostly limited to Philippine myth and bits of modern Philippine history (with the others, particularly the personal ones, being kinda unnecessary). It is, I think, about as referential as, say, any poem semi-modernizing Greek or Roman myth, with the only thing making it difficult being that instead of Greek or Roman myth, it's Filipino myth*. Which would, if this remained obscure to a literate Filipino audience, be interesting, especially with the poem swaying to commentary on imperialism. But to an international audience, especially with the internet, all four goddesses have Wikipedia articles, and the articles I believe lay out most everything you need to know -- without the internet, yeah, probably notes. I agree with you that notes can be a part of the poem, but I also agree with Leanne that if the notes intrude upon the poem, it ain't successful -- ultimately, the limiting factors for me would be audience (this is presented in an international forum for workshopping, but I intend to circulate this among Filipino friends), extent (as in, the notes shouldn't exactly be line-by-line; as well, if it's a haiku or a sonnet or some other shorter form, it should be selective in terms of its audience, whereas for long forms the author wants to sell and such, it's excusable), and who wrote them (if it's anyone but the author and if it's without the author's consent and if language hasn't evolved enough that any idiosyncracies are inadvertent, then no, it shouldn't be part of the poem). For this, in all three, I don't need notes -- okay, maybe for this forum, I need some notes, but again, Google, and more importantly I wanna see how many folks are engaged enough to actually Google, because if there's not enough, then I've failed. I could PM you some, if you want, though.
*and ironically, the one section which draws from myth the most, the first one, is I think straightforward enough a narrative that it's the only section that won't need notes.