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where newbs can acclimatise before plucking up the courage or acquiring the skills to post in serious crit. it maybe that we need a forum that that acclimatises them before posting in mild crit. a sort of holding forum.

the poll is to pick one of the options and post here how to implement it and what sort of rules. your answers will be used purely as a guideline.

i think if you merge some of the threads as we have already done we can make room for a newbs forum.

the poetry practice can go in Miscellaneous Poetry and Prose forum so it becomes; Poetry Practice, and Prose Forum: i'm sure the prcatice threads can be stickied when needed so they stay at the top of the forum

if we start a beginners forum we can also set up an easier practice thread for the newbs, IE; create a poem using these end rhymes; etc.

i'd suggest we pick out one aspect that we think could be improved and direct them to a poem in the reference section as an example; it would be hard work for the mods but it would hopefully get them reading proper poetry.




One of the exercises I like to use is, take one of Shakespeare's sonnets, steal the end rhymes and write your own sonnet -- it's good practise and they usually end up better than Willy's Smile

I would hazard a guess that all the mods want to see some improvement in internet poetry in general -- I know I do, and wouldn't mind putting in a bit more effort to make it happen (as long as I'm not exclusively dealing with newbs, because that gets bloody painful even with the best intentions).

A fair number of the poems that have been posted in the mild crit forum would have been better off in a beginner's section, simply because then the commenter knows exactly what he/she is dealing with, experience-wise, and is more likely to be patient (not that anyone here is terribly impatient, but it's easier to set your pitch that way).

I don't know if there's any way to be selective about who comments on beginners' poetry, just to make sure that they're not given dreadful advice -- I've seen comments (not necessarily here) that claim some lofty superior knowledge merely by virtue of being a page ahead of the writer they're critiquing and, while I think it's good that once you learn a new skill you pass it on to others, I also think there's a danger of some commenters using such a forum for their own ego-stroking purposes. I don't know how to avoid that though.
The board will take it's cues from all of us. If we're welcoming to new people others will be. What we slap down will likely be what others slap down. I think you mostly just set the quiet tone.

One site I've posted on uses Post for Comments. We don't need to use that terminology we could call it anything...new to poetry, share your poems, etc.

We want beginners to get used to posting their poems and to get used to critique. I would say something like.

Post your poem for general feedback

comment on two poems in this forum for each poem you post.

--share what you like about the poem (what works)

--suggest something that can be improved in the poem.


Basic and non-threatening.

I'm in favor of collapsing poetry practice to make room. We could place individual sticky practices in any of the forums if we want.
I'm really nervous about using terminology like "share your poems" though -- we're just as likely to have a flood of showcasers who put nothing back into the site -- I don't know about making a comment-per-poem demand either, though I'd like to think that the ideal member would do that anyway. I know there are certain other sites where you have to get a certain amount of points by commenting before you can post new poems, and the resultant comments are usually that generic type we're desperate to avoid here.

Ach well, we can't legislate for morons, I guess we'll just have to terminate them as they appear Smile
i think we should simlply ask them to give feedback on other peoples poems in that forum. or risk getting none and no help in return, off the more experienced members. we can also tell them that we want members who are prepared to contribute via feedback and that in the beginners forum , the mods will comment on any feedback that's merely back patting without a valid reason IE, the third line made me think of my first jump etc, would be fine. "it really rocks" would get a "please explain why it rocks"/Mod
we can call the forum The 1st Rung on the Ladder of Poetry and feedback. or the novice poet and critique forum. ...
I sort of like the novice poet thing only because most of the problem people showcasing would not identify themselves that way.
poems that are seriously novice can be moved to the novice forum with a polite note from the mod.

the thing is, we need to populate the fucker Hysterical which as my laughter shows, is no mean feat.
(08-09-2011, 02:06 PM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]i think we should simlply ask them to give feedback on other peoples poems in that forum. or risk getting none and no help in return, off the more experienced members. we can also tell them that we want members who are prepared to contribute via feedback and that in the beginners forum , the mods will comment on any feedback that's merely back patting without a valid reason IE, the third line made me think of my first jump etc, would be fine. "it really rocks" would get a "please explain why it rocks"/Mod
we can call the forum The 1st Rung on the Ladder of Poetry and feedback. or the novice poet and critique forum. ...
I'm good with all of these ideas -- especially the comment or get none in return part.
(08-09-2011, 02:08 PM)Todd Wrote: [ -> ]I sort of like the novice poet thing only because most of the problem people showcasing would not identify themselves that way.
Wink excellent point
Well, seems I'm in the minority, though merging poetry practice is I think still a better idea than doing away with mild critique and replacing it with a beginner's forum. Mild critique serves a very important purpose to my mind. It encourages people to share what poems they might otherwise have been hesitant to for fear of them being ripped apart.
i think we'll be keeping the mild forum and just adding a forum for those who are really new to poetry.
This is gimmicky but I'll throw it out there as food for thought.

American Idol is widely known, as is Simon (the harsh judge), Paula (the kind judge), and Randy (the middle of the road judge).

So perhaps at the top of the forum have a note telling people they can indicate whether they want to hear from "Paula" "Randy" or "Simon" Then rely on your mods to make judgement calls when people go Simon on someone who wanted to hear from Paula.

You could implement it with Thread Prefixes--so they would choose the prefix when they created the page, and you could even have icons appear next to the thread title. Maybe the faces of those people, or perhaps green/yellow/red orbs, or "Be Nice" "Be Honest" "Be Brutal" text, or something like that.
it's a good idea but too hard to keep too. i've seen it on loads of sites where poets are asked if they want honest feedback and they sign yes, when they get get it the cry like babies Big Grin
I wasn't sure whether I wanted billy fed to a dragon or whether I wanted to just leave things as they were, waiting for a dragon to wander by randomy and eat him. I voted to leave things as they are.
it seem i am marked by satan Sad or is that 666
they all look the same to me Wink
(08-09-2011, 02:06 PM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]i think we should simlply ask them to give feedback on other peoples poems in that forum. or risk getting none and no help in return, off the more experienced members. we can also tell them that we want members who are prepared to contribute via feedback and that in the beginners forum , the mods will comment on any feedback that's merely back patting without a valid reason IE, the third line made me think of my first jump etc, would be fine. "it really rocks" would get a "please explain why it rocks"/Mod
we can call the forum The 1st Rung on the Ladder of Poetry and feedback. or the novice poet and critique forum. ...

I'm staying out of newbies...I cannot moderate myself. This is how I see it. Every new member goes in to the newbie forum. All the newbies crit each other. The mods, like unseen Gods, reap the souls of the deserving few and transport them into other forums. No crit. Just move them up to heaven. Of course, after the sscension, anything goes as far as crit rules (current) permit. In other words, you gotta be good to go to heaven...oh, and the arrangement should be written in stone.
Best,
Tom
to heaven or hellHuh
While I recognize that everyone on here operates on a strictly volunteer basis, I think a little more stringency/structure could be very useful. Even if that means self-demotion for me.

Here's what I have in mind.

1. Reserve the ability to comment or post in "serious workshopping" for people who have racked up a high number of quality posts. The number should be 100 or above, and the ratio should be favorable, in terms of comments vs. posted work.
2. Have a similar standard for an intermediate forum. Make it 50 posts or above.
3. Have assigned gradations of mentorship. Different mods should be assigned to different forums, and permitted power within those forms, in accordance with their experience, skill, expertise, etc. As much as we all love Milo, he can't be everywhere at once.
4. I would also like to see more mods try to mimic the level of involvement and concern Milo displays in his critiques. Too often, in commenting, we all content ourselves to keep a safe and happy distance from what we're reading.
5. Mods need to take a very relaxed and congengial stance with beginners, so as to not discourage them from writing outright. This is very, very important. We are all coming into this as strangers. To have someone tear you apart on your first post can be . . . traumatic.

My experience in academic creative writing is limited. Even so, within the short time I've been here, I've seen how congenial an internet forum can be to honing your craft -- if the right people make themselves available, and have the courage to call you out. And, lest I forget it: if I can have the courage to stomach being corrected. Smile
we don't have enough mods for one on ones really. and we're not keen on having more than what we've got, milo's posts are prolific and lengthy because he has no other job Hysterical in general we can only learn from doing, to stop people giving crit/feedback because they aren't of a certain level would hinder their chance to learn. we learn by reading and doing. trauma makes a poet strong, if their traumatised often enough they'll learn how to cope with feedback. a poorly done poem is a poorly done poem, to tell a poet any different would be the unkindest cut we could inflict on him.
we can certainly look at some of the other things though. personally i hate restricting poets who want to try and improve by make them post a hundred poems/posts, in general the new registered forum works well enough even if an odd few slip through the cracks.

thanks for the input :J:
(11-05-2013, 10:08 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]we don't have enough mods for one on ones really. and we're not keen on having more than what we've got, milo's posts are prolific and lengthy because he has no other job Hysterical in general we can only learn from doing, to stop people giving crit/feedback because they aren't of a certain level would hinder their chance to learn. we learn by reading and doing. trauma makes a poet strong, if their traumatised often enough they'll learn how to cope with feedback. a poorly done poem is a poorly done poem, to tell a poet any different would be the unkindest cut we could inflict on him.
we can certainly look at some of the other things though. personally i hate restricting poets who want to try and improve by make them post a hundred poems/posts, in general the new registered forum works well enough even if an odd few slip through the cracks.

thanks for the input :J:

I think there was some confusion raised because i brought this post back from the dead, it is over two years old!!

i just wanted to see how many people would vote to feed billy to a dragon.

As for a minimum number of posts, it is a good idea in practice but I would be afraid it would keep some members that are already at an advanced point in their poetic journey from joining and participating and that would be a severe loss to the sight.

Also, i do have a job, i am there many, many hours. The confusion arises due to me not actually accomplishing any /work/ while I am there (here actually right now)
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