Poetry Forum

.

Oncology ontology, postmodernism savoir faire,
metaphysical cancer has a certain air.
So self assured, with so little knowledge,
learned at the best local junior college.
Tested in the crucible of lunch and free rides,
all one needed was to show up and bide.
At best what used to be a grade school education,
they’ve never seen death, nor begged for salvation.
Yet they’ll whisper their learned platitudes to you
as they fumble and bumble, not knowing what they do!

–Erthona 2014

In English/British slang the word 'fumble' it has a sexual connotation akin to 'fiddle', which given the title takes the poem in a direction you perhaps did not intend, painting a picture of an embittered cancer patient noncing with children.

I like this one. Let's go through it, shall we?


[quote='Erthona' pid='156577' dateline='1393746643']
.

Oncology ontology, postmodernism savoir faire, - are you missing some commas, or am I missing something else?
metaphysical cancer floating on air, - apart from not quite understanding this part (in which case take my comment with a pinch of salt), I don't like the 'floating on air'.
So self assured, with so little knowledge, - is this a new sentence? Looks like one, but the previous line ends with a comma, so I am confused as to how to read it in relation to the previous lines.
learned at the best local junior college.
Tested in the crucible of lunch and free rides,
all one needed was to show up and bide. - this line sounds a bit stiff and a bit awkward.
At best what used to be an grade school education, - 'an grade school'? I don't usually correct punctuation an spelling etc. But in this case I really did trip all over this one; also, while I'm doing 'that' thing, a comma after best wouldn't go amiss. I may be being a bit slow, just woke, but i don't entirely get the point you're making here (not necessarily an indication that anything is wrong, by the way )
they’ve never seen death, nor begged for salvation.
Yet they’ll whisper their learned platitudes to you
as they fumble and bumble, not knowing what they do! The ending is good.

i like this one. I don't think it quite has that emotional impact of anger that i think it is driving at, but it is well enough. Further, the lack of any pronouns in the first half of the poem turns it into a bit of a 'guess who' thing, or worse a 'guess what' thing (largely down to punctuation issues [yours or mine, i am not sure at the moment]), and I don't like that.

and ps. I like the original title more.

I changed the title although I think it is fairly obvious who is doing the "fumbling". In the US, fumble means to do something clumsily. But thanks for the heads up.

Dale

---

shem,

All you noted was indeed incorrect. sometimes I have difficulty telling the difference between periods and commas. The "an" was originally there because it said "an eight grade education", and I forgot to change it when I changed it to grade school education. No, you are correct it is not meant to spew anger, it is more of a slightly anger/humorous take on these people who do two years of Jr. College and act as though they have just finished a doctorate (of course most doctorate grads don't known near as much as they think the do either.) The anger comes from me being on the receiving end of their undeserved overconfidence. Not all are that way, in fact most are not, but there are always a few out there to ruin your day

The moral (my poems are not generally moralistic), if there is one is treat people well, instead of trying to impress them, and you will both have a much more pleasant experience.

Maybe I will change the title back, see if I get any more input on it. The original was "nursery rhyme "

Dale

(03-02-2014, 04:50 PM)Erthona Wrote: [ -> ].

Oncology ontology, postmodernism savoir faire,
metaphysical cancer has a certain air.
So self assured, with so little knowledge,
learned at the best local junior college.
Tested in the crucible of lunch and free rides,
all one needed was to show up and bide.
At best what used to be a grade school education,
they’ve never seen death, nor begged for salvation.
Yet they’ll whisper their learned platitudes to you
as they fumble and bumble, not knowing what they do!

–Erthona 2014

Im a newby to poetry so maybe im off base here but I just didnt
get it your rhyming just missed the mark it seemed very forcedI kept
if your refering to a young person.growing up in an urban city
they see death almost on a daily basis and the catholic reference
at the end the whole piece just felt confused and desparate

(03-03-2014, 12:45 AM)Erthona Wrote: [ -> ]I changed the title although I think it is fairly obvious who is doing the "fumbling". In the US, fumble means to do something clumsily. But thanks for the heads up.

Dale

---

shem,

All you noted was indeed incorrect. sometimes I have difficulty telling the difference between periods and commas. The "an" was originally there because it said "an eight grade education", and I forgot to change it when I changed it to grade school education. No, you are correct it is not meant to spew anger, it is more of a slightly anger/humorous take on these people who do two years of Jr. College and act as though they have just finished a doctorate (of course most doctorate grads don't known near as much as they think the do either.) The anger comes from me being on the receiving end of their undeserved overconfidence. Not all are that way, in fact most are not, but there are always a few out there to ruin your day

The moral (my poems are not generally moralistic), if there is one is treat people well, instead of trying to impress them, and you will both have a much more pleasant experience.

Maybe I will change the title back, see if I get any more input on it. The original was "nursery rhyme "

Dale

last things first, I do like the original title (i read the first comment and I am british and didn't think anything of the use of the word 'fumble'; i mean, some poems have words in them that will make that difference, but if it hadn't been highlighted i wouldn't have made this association. The poem seems clear enough not to be about that).

the punctuation edits make for a much easier read. I really enjoyed it.
further, the two lines I said i didnt quite get, 'the metaphysical cancer...' is actually now one of my favorite phrases (although, it still makes my brain hurt if i try to actually unpack that philosophically - which again, is a bonus).

thanks for the read again.

Hey Dale,

Enjoyed the poem; I felt it was a relatable topic. The line "all one needed was to show up and bide" felt a bit forced to me, but for what it was, the rest seemed pretty appropriate and well worded. Agree with shem's first comment it doesn't quite reach the pitch of anger; taken as a nursery rhyme though, I wouldn't really expect it to and it never struck me as the goal.

Thanks for the read

-geoff

poetry in motion,

Thanks for your comments. I'll try and respond to your questions, and give my rationale for why I did what I did (I'm not saying it worked, just giving you my rational).

" but I just didnt get it your rhyming just missed the mark it seemed very forced"

As I was trying somewhat to mimic a "nursery rhyme" I used rhyming couplets, and simplistic rhymes, as one might find in a "nursery rhyme". Example:

"The Owl and the Pussycat went to sea
In a beautiful pea-green boat,
They took some honey, and plenty of money,
Wrapped up in a five pound note."

As you can see honey and money are fairly nonsensical, as neither owl or cats eat honey, and "Wrapped up in a five pound note." is purely there to rhyme with boat, not because it makes any sense. So that was what I was trying to mimic.

"if your refering to a young person.growing up in an urban city
they see death almost on a daily basis"

I am referring to someone who is going to "junior college", as it states,

"So self assured, with so little knowledge,
learned at the best local junior college.
Tested in the crucible of lunch and free rides,
all one needed was to show up and bide."

As far as seeing death on a daily basis, I don't know where you come from but that is not the case where I live, maybe if you are talking about some of the worse ghettos in the larger towns in the world, that are overrun by gangs, violence, and drugs, but most of these people would fit the image I paint of the kids going to junior college, children of upper lower or middle class homes. The have a sense of entitlement that is not justified, and are not self motivated. basically they are spoiled.

"the catholic reference at the end the whole piece just felt confused and desparate "

I made no catholic reference. If you are referring to my use of the word platitudes, it has no connection at all to Catholicism.

"platitudes:a flat, dull, or trite remark, especially one uttered as if it were fresh or profound." i.e sophomoric

In terms of the use of the word salvation, its first definition is "the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc." It is not until the 4th definition that a theological bent is added, and that is hardly catholic specific:

"Theology . deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption."

Regardless, I meant it more as the 1st definition, in that they have lived fairly sheltered lives, this is also supported by the lines

"Tested in the crucible of lunch and free rides, (the word crucible is meant as ironic)
all one needed was to show up and bide."

In other words the Jr. college is paid for by someone else "free rides", and the level of competence is not very high, and basically all they need do is show up and they will pass their class. Having taught at a Jr. College, I feel as though I have some little insight into what is required of the students. It really is just an extension of high school, and the students generally treat it as such. They have the mind set that they are being made to do this, rather than they are being given an opportunity to improve their future fortunes.

Hope that clears up some of your questions. Obviously I need to work on clarity some if it is coming off this confusing.

Thanks again for your comments,

Dale

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the additional comments, especially on the word "'fumble". "The poem seems clear enough not to be about that". That was my thinking, but I did not know how strong a connotation "fumble" carries in the UK, so I was will to consider a change.

'the metaphysical cancer...' is actually now one of my favorite phrases" Thanks.

Thanks again Shem,

Dale
-----------------------------------------------------------------
geoff,

Thanks for the comments. And yes, it is only a slight anger, more of an irritation mixed in with kind of a fatalistic humor, if that makes sense.

Thanks again,

Dale

Hi Dale,
I love what I read into this –( About time this was worded too. Way too much regurgitated clap trap out there!)
Thanks for the read.
My interpretation thoughts are along the lines of a sketch in the Black Adder series.
Taken from black Adder II episode 2:
BA No that's what I think, that's what I think! What do you think?
Try to have a thought of your own, Baldrick, thinking is so
important. What do you think?
B: I think thinking is so important my Lord.
From this I am assuming that I would deplore the US education system as much as I despise the Uk system. If I have one more un-informed and un-supported "scientific fact" delivered with that smug know it all smile, from yet another nappy wearing, shiftless, parasite - I will give up being warm and fluffy for Lent!
The poem: I did not have a problem with the word fumble having two possible meanings and so skewing the direction of the read. (I'm also British - yes it does have a slang double, but this is not in common enough parlance to affect the read in the way mentioned) . Also think that the plain, up front meaning is clear enough and you should keep the original title. I particularly liked the title and then the tone of the poem addressed to the intellectual lightweights.
The first two lines are a puzzle as you follow the thread of thought through the maze of words to get at the message and this too reinforces the meaning of the title. This verbal slap then works well and is emphasised by the use of the oh so simple rhyme scheme and is yet another put down – this was what I assumed and took from the title and first few lines.
I saw this on Sunday morning and ditto on the comment about the use of an, although this has now been explained away and corrected.

Not sure i have much crit to offer, but will be back to re-read.

(03-02-2014, 04:50 PM)Erthona Wrote: [ -> ].

Oncology ontology, postmodernism savoir faire,
metaphysical cancer has a certain air.
So self assured, with so little knowledge,
learned at the best local junior college.
Tested in the crucible of lunch and free rides,
all one needed was to show up and bide. And bide feel a little stilted and off somehow. The meaning is plain and it works, so no real suggestions
At best what used to be a grade school education,
they’ve never seen death, nor begged for salvation. again the meaning of the whole line is plain enough but it feels out of place in it's current wording...they haven't lived enough to claim a line on life is the sentiment I get from this line.
Yet they’ll whisper their learned platitudes to you would like to have a stronger word than learned in this line (that is the problem with them they haven learned anything they are just regurgitating information - spouting facts and statements about which they are ignorant). Also whisper felt off to the sentiment...in my experiance they don't whisper - they gob off, whilst stood on a platform of self appointed superiority
as they fumble and bumble, not knowing what they do!

–Erthona 2014

This one cheered me up ....thanks for the read.

cidermaid,

cidermaid,wrote:
"If I have one more un-informed and un-supported "scientific fact" delivered with that smug know it all smile, from yet another nappy wearing, shiftless, parasite"

Yes that is a very good encapsulation.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I used bide because it indicates the person is doing even less than when waiting, especially intellectually. That it created such an offal/awful rhyme was simply serendipitous.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"they’ve never seen death, nor begged for salvation." basically they've lived a privileged life. A bit of facetiousness there.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"learned" was meant as a pun, as it can be pronounced two different ways and each carries different meaning. Of course the learn-ned way was meant ironically. However I do like regurgitate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"whisper" was also used ironically, unfortunately the only the clue of that is the "Yet they’ll". That's my fault, as well as some of the others, I often end up being too subtle for my own good. Obviously if no one is getting the joke, you are not telling it very well. SO I probably need to do some tinkering. Maybe use something like "as they proudly whisper..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, thanks for the feedback, it was very helpful, as well as insightful.

Thanks again,

Dale

How about "junior college nursery rhyme". Nah, Think I will probably go back to just nursery rhyme, I only put the adult there because of what was said about "fumble". Now that, that seems to be a non-issue, I will just restore the original.

Dale