The Balance

[Wildcard]

I didn't come here from any other poetry site and so I probably don't appreciate The Pig Pen for the same reasons as those of you who did. I hear a lot of members saying that other sites there is a lot of back-patting and very little useful critique and I'm sure glad that isn't the case here- but with no personal experience with the 'bad' sites I can only take your word for it.

What I immediately liked about this site was how nice everyone was. My poetry isn't great, but still everyone made an effort to say something good about my work. I'm sure it was a struggle.

I agree that it is important to be honest. Without honesty and the courage to tell it like it is we wouldn't workshop very well- and I don't want to see this forum go down the 'back patting' road, of course. There is a happy medium.

'If you can't say anything nice . . .'

Let's face it: it's hard sometimes to look past blaring errors and still let a member know you appreciate the effort they have out into writing and posting their work here, but in my opinion it is necessary to the community spirit. It's what made me want to stay here; it is what made me want to get better.

[Leanne]

Yes.

I'd like to think that people wouldn't say online anything they wouldn't say if the person were sitting across a coffee shop table with a hot espresso. In a real-life workshop, you present your work expecting to have errors or possible improvements pointed out, but if the critic is a complete arse you have the option of smacking him across the head. As there can be no smacking here, it's best to avoid the situation so that we don't have members frustrated by violent yearnings. Please remember that these are not imaginary people inside your computer, they're real people who deserve your respect no matter how bad their poems are

Unless they don't say thank you, or call you names in return for your balanced critique, in which case... well...

mods will deal with it (I have to say that, the lawyers said so)

[abu nuwas]

It is quite a natural thing, not to offend, and particularly so in the case of people one has come to like, hence all the 'awesome' stuff. Perhaps the insistence on constructive critique may make that easier. When everyone knows the name of the game, there should be no cause for offence.

I have a slight problem: first , we should say something, right? If not 'Great', at least what impressed us, what our reaction was. Yet I find, that a poem may be fairly mysterious, obscure if you will, and I am left saying that the richness of the words, or sounds, I like; tho in reality it is more than that, just as I could not give a detailed explanation of why I like bananas, beyond 'the taste'.

I do know at least one person who left after a while, and told me that the reason was that she felt out of her depth on the critique front. I understand that. The heart sinks when one sees a few obscure words, or phrases, and a reference to Grundsteinism. With Wiki and Google to hand, that is in truth lazy, but even so, it can give a dismal idea of the general ambiance. I find it more odd when people leave who have had ample opportunity to read both serious-ish stuff, and plain silliness.

I admire people immensely who say: what does that mean? I do not mean 'what does the poem mean?' (another question, much thrashed out), but just referring to some phrase or word, or whatever, which comes up in comments etc. The question may well make the writer have a think before replying!

Was this balanced? Am I?

[Leanne]

You're unbalanced in the best possible way

It's probable that newcomers will feel out of their depth "on the critique front" because at the end of the day, most of the people left giving critiques are those who have been doing it a long time -- we tend to fall into patterns and perhaps go more in-depth than newcomers, but that's really only because we're confident that our criticism will be useful and we're used to reading poetry in certain ways. Truth be told, those who are holding up the critiquing end of things are crying out for new people to come in, give their comments, have a shot -- it's rewarding, but we're only human.

[abu nuwas]

You're unbalanced in the best possible way

It's probable that newcomers will feel out of their depth "on the critique front" because at the end of the day, most of the people left giving critiques are those who have been doing it a long time -- we tend to fall into patterns and perhaps go more in-depth than newcomers, but that's really only because we're confident that our criticism will be useful and we're used to reading poetry in certain ways. Truth be told, those who are holding up the critiquing end of things are crying out for new people to come in, give their comments, have a shot -- it's rewarding, but we're only human.

Yes, I see that. I am not sure what one might further do, to make it plain, that whatever the poem be, the category is for novice, mild, serious critique.. Plus the fun ones which ought not to tax anyone. Maybe a massive notice saying 'SPEAK AS YOU FIND!'

[billy]

it's like everything else in life we crit ( if we're 'onest) this coffee dosn't taste too goo, it needs milk...it needs more sugar
the beers warm give me a lager please. excuse me sir but doing 100 in a 60 mph zone is a bit silly isn't it.
nice tits, shame about the face.

critique/feedback need not be an academic exercise in blow wind up someone's arse. most of us don't have those kind of skills. that some do is a good thing though. maybe it's it's me but i's struggle to believe that anyone could find my crits make anyone feel out of their depths. i could be wrong but i think we have a fairly eclectic group of critics that cross the whole gambit of feedback.

to the question at hand. i personally think it's easy to make a conscious effort to honest and kind. saying this is great if you don't believe it to be the case makes one a bit of twat (in my book) it may be that they actually think something great because to them and their knowledge of poetry it is. maybe all the poetry they've read is internet poetry.

i think there's also that element of posting a poem thinking it's great and not needing t see someone say "this doesn't work for me because.." i'd much sooner a few cantankerous writers who help each other with honest sensible feedback than the "it's lovely' brigade. feedback and how to give it can to a certain extent be learned from reading feedback on a poem and of the course the poem itself. to be out of one's depth is merely a state of mind. i think leanne has the crux of it sorted out; imagine you're discussing their poem over a coffee table and not the net.

[ckeo]

No matter how bad a persons writing be, there is always something good in there, even if it only the fact that they are trying. I think many noobs become disheartened when the critique comes out like an exagerated football play diagram and just give up. Not everyone is a purist nor wants to be one and sometimes during critique, purity outweighs creativity and destroys it. New writers do not have the ability to write what they want to say and follow a form. Form should come from practice and in small doses so it does not interfere with their creative process causing them to flee back to their xbox.

Now... myself.. I can take it because "I am a sensitive man".

[Leanne]

Hello there Is it Craig? My memory isn't what it ought to be... anyway... it's true that new writers can feel overwhelmed by reams of detailed critique, so that's why we built the Novice forum especially for them. It's also why we have lessons in form that don't come with critique, just pointers on how to get it right -- again, in the Novice forum. There's no shame in admitting you're a novice and staying in there for a while -- it's also for novice readers to try out their critique skills. We're constantly adding bits to the site to cater for different levels of poetry experience, or different ways to give and receive feedback, and we're pretty flexible. We just believe that bumholes should stay smoke free

By the way, good to see you back!

[ckeo]

Hello there Is it Craig? My memory isn't what it ought to be... anyway... it's true that new writers can feel overwhelmed by reams of detailed critique, so that's why we built the Novice forum especially for them. It's also why we have lessons in form that don't come with critique, just pointers on how to get it right -- again, in the Novice forum. There's no shame in admitting you're a novice and staying in there for a while -- it's also for novice readers to try out their critique skills. We're constantly adding bits to the site to cater for different levels of poetry experience, or different ways to give and receive feedback, and we're pretty flexible. We just believe that bumholes should stay smoke free

By the way, good to see you back!

Thanks.

I am back, better than before....
The bionic poet.. spewing horrid engrish that will make yer eyes bleed.
:angel:

(yes it is Craig ya gets a hug fer 'memberin)

[billy]

i knew it was craig

and like leanne, it's good to see ya back

i think that's one of the main problems of newbs not posting on sites with half honest feedback, they feel out of their depth. sadly thats one of the hardest things for us to overcome. we don't have the ability to remove said barriers, the newb has to have the courage to that themselves. all we can do is tell them not worry about it, which can sound a little condescending

[srijantje]

and then not tell them their first effords are total shite,sigh,i know the feeling

who's Graig?

[Wildcard]

who's Graig?

Craig = ckeo

[billy]

ckeo= craig

[Veil of Trash]

I realised a long time ago that I much prefer badly structured, "half-sensical" degenerative failtext to anything artful or clever. (*) As a result, I and 99% of the population have all innately mastered the ways of "poetic" crap babble. This satisfies me in ways I will never be able to express*.
I feel this probably makes me unfit to critique other people's poems, I gleam very little from poems and most likely that which I do are in offensive or embarassing colours. Of course I still share them with you*; but I try and keep it on the down-low.

One person's clever is another person's stupid, as I am my own person's stupid I can only hope that the argument works in reverse and that there is someone out there crazy enough to find me clever. x

[srijantje]

that was very clever trash

[Leanne]

Offensive is my crack.

As long as its offensive but pretty

[rayheinrich]

There was once an indigenous dewarf,
Who imbalanced, fell off of a thewharf;
Though spinning and crazed,
All of us he amazed,
As a cat he proceeded to remorph.

[billy]

so is this thread an announcement or a suggestion

[srijantje]

restore some order here//mod

[billy]

i put the thread in poetry discussions.

i think everyone should join at least 1 or 2 ego stroking sites, if only to see how not to give feedback. sometimes seeing those sites in action can show those new to feedback how not to do it.