The Third & Fourth Generation

[Lizzie]

The Third & Fourth Generation
       ~Numbers 14:18

Grandpa drove north in early summer,
never calling ahead.
He'd surprise us with late evening arrival,
expecting dinner.
Mom would make him another—
that's how she was raised.

His dad left him without any warning
when he was seven.
His grandmother fed him without complaint—
that's how she was raised.

His grandfather's closest friend was opium.
They bonded during the civil war
over rifle fire and a shattered leg
that never fully healed.
They swapped war stories in silence
of the departed who wouldn't die.
It vanished in 1906,
pulled from the drug store's shelves.

He wept to his wife too many times,
and she told him, "Just go ahead
and do it already."
Grandpa found him the next morning
hanging by his neck from a cross-beam in the barn.

Grandpa would start wearing sweaters
the last week of August.
My brother and I would wake unaware
to a crisp, windy morning—
mom's face left behind to tell us
that he drove south during the night.

I'm slightly unhappy with the piece, and I don't know why. Perhaps it's too whiny at the end? Is it overwritten? Underwritten? Does it read like prose? Something's missing   

[TranquillityBase]

The Third & Fourth Generation
       ~Numbers 14:18

Grandpa drove north in early summer,
never calling ahead.
He'd surprise us with late evening arrival,
expecting dinner.
Mom would make him another—
that's how she was raised.

His dad left him without any warning
when he was seven.
His grandmother fed him without complaint—              just fed him?  this section seems too abbreviated, surely she felt more about him than this.
that's how she was raised.

His grandfather's closest friend was opium.
They bonded during the civil war
over rifle fire and a shattered leg
that never fully healed.
They swapped war stories in silence
of the departed who wouldn't die.
It vanished in 1906,
pulled from the drug store's shelves.

He wept to his wife too many times,
and she told him, "Just go ahead
and do it already."                                   Something about grandma's response sounds too modern to my ear
Grandpa found him the next morning
hanging by his neck from a cross-beam in the barn.

Grandpa would start wearing sweaters
the last week of August.
My brother and I would wake unaware
to a crisp, windy morning—
mom's face left behind to tell us
that he drove south during the night.

That's how he raised us, with unsparing rod:  "unsparing rod" seems too much, it's not so much punishment he inflicted, but his uncertain coming and going
grandfathers vanish, so don't ever care.  This is the only time the author makes a statement of response, so it does seem to just be hanging out there.


P.S.

 I'm slightly unhappy with the piece, and I don't know why.   I think it's an excellent poem aside from my suggestions above.  Last lines are problematic, so maybe a more full fledged final stanza.

Perhaps it's too whiny at the end?  I don't hear it as whiny.  But he didn't exactly raise you, he just made sporadic, somewhat mysterious visits.

Does it read like prose? Not to me.  I like each stanza and the progression of the story.  Second and fourth stanza and ending could use some work, some elaboration.  I think the other stanzas are strong and invite rereading.

[Knot]

Hi Lizzie.

Just to be clear

Grandpa drives north/south (is he Mom's father?)
Greatgrandpa left when Grandad was seven
Greatgreatgrandpa addicted to opium/kills himself
Greatgreatgrandma unsympathetic (is she the same one in S2 who raises Grandpa?)



Grandpa drove north in early summer,
never calling ahead. ............... should this be 'called' (given 'drove'?)
He'd surprise us with late evening arrival,
expecting dinner. .................... it's a bit clunky ('surprise' is a bit 'tell' isn't it?) and doesn't 'dinner/make him another' give 'late evening arrival?
Mom would make him another—
that's how she was raised. ....... 'another' seems a bit ambiguous. As if he'd already eaten and wanted another, a second, meal. Perhaps something like
Mom would head to the kitchen,
that's how she was raised.

His dad left him without any warning
when he was seven. ............. I agree with TqB about the brevity of this. The 'him' in the next line is also ambiguous (but what I struggled with is 'grandmother'. Where's the mother? Should 'fed him' be 'took him in'?)
His grandmother fed him without complaint—
that's how she was raised.

His grandfather's closest friend was opium.
They bonded during the civil war
over rifle fire and a shattered leg
that never fully healed.......... I wasn't convinced by 'bonded' but I like the set-up. 'War stories' seemed a bit of a cliche, and then the bald statement of the final two lines just begged the question, what did he do? Black market?
Alternatively, could you cut these four lines and replace them with S4?
They swapped war stories in silence
of the departed who wouldn't die.
It vanished in 1906,
pulled from the drug store's shelves.

He wept to his wife too many times,
and she told him, "Just go ahead
and do it already."
Grandpa found him the next morning
hanging by his neck from a cross-beam in the barn. ........... It's an interesting/horrible scene, but, like S2, seems far too short (nothing here explains Grandpa's sudden appearances/departures, to me.) Also, I was expecting the verse to end with a 'that's how she was raised.'

Grandpa would start wearing sweaters
the last week of August.
My brother and I would wake unaware
to a crisp, windy morning—
mom's face left behind to tell us
that he drove south during the night. ....... why not end here? I don't think the final couplet (and yes, perhaps a bit too whiny) is needed. Perhaps even add a
that's how she was raised ? A continuity of women picking up the pieces.

Had to look up the Bible quote, and was left wondering what is the crime being punished.


Best, Knot


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[brynmawr1]

The Third & Fourth Generation
       ~Numbers 14:18

Grandpa drove north in early summer,
never calling ahead.
He'd surprise us with late evening arrival,
expecting dinner.
Mom would make him another—            I agree that 'another' is confusing.  My reading is that 'Mom' has to cook an additional meal that evening but that isn't clear
that's how she was raised.

His dad left him without any warning
when he was seven.
His grandmother fed him without complaint—
that's how she was raised.

His grandfather's closest friend was opium.
They bonded during the civil war
over rifle fire and a shattered leg
that never fully healed.
They swapped war stories in silence
of the departed who wouldn't die.
It vanished in 1906,
pulled from the drug store's shelves.

He wept to his wife too many times,
and she told him, "Just go ahead
and do it already."
Grandpa found him the next morning
hanging by his neck from a cross-beam in the barn.

Grandpa would start wearing sweaters
the last week of August.
My brother and I would wake unaware
to a crisp, windy morning—
mom's face left behind to tell us
that he drove south during the night.

That's how he raised us, with unsparing rod:     I do think that the poem should end with something like this but it doesn't feel like he raised the narrator.  He raised the Mom and so on....
grandfathers vanish, so don't ever care.

I'm slightly unhappy with the piece, and I don't know why. Perhaps it's too whiny at the end? Is it overwritten? Underwritten? Does it read like prose? Something's missing   

Hi Lizzie,
I don't have many comments on the text except that noted above.  I did have one thought/suggestion to consider and that is to arrange the poem more chronologically, or more precisely, generationally.  The poem as I read it, given the title and how the poem has been written, is about generational pain and how it gets passed on from parent to child.  It seems to me that if the poem mirrored that progression it would provide a stronger link to the title and give the reader more to hold on to as they are carried to the end with the narrator giving insight on how this has affected them.  I also sense that there are aspects of the storyline that still aren't clear to the narrator and thus aren't fully articulated.  Of corse that would require more than just rearranging some stanzas.
Thanks for the read,
Bryn

[Lizzie]

This one has gone sideways. Thanks for the comments, everyone.

[Fearful Symmetry]

You worried this poem might be a bit prosey but in my opinion that’s where this piece works best. Like William Stafford’s Traveling Through the Dark, the poetry (other than Stafford’s 3rd to last line, in my opinion) is in what isn’t said.

It might be worth considering a slightly revised title, tacking “Unto” onto the front to lean in to ye olde biblical influence.

For me, this poem started in the 3rd stanza and emotionally ended in the 4th.

[Lizzie]

For me, this poem started in the 3rd stanza and emotionally ended in the 4th.

I actually couldn't agree more. 

Thanks for the Stafford recommendation -- I adore him. 

Welcome to the Pen, Tyger. 

[Tiger the Lion]

After reading the other comments I wonder about a few different band aids to any generational confusion. You could arrange the strophes so that each is unique to its character, though it might be tricky keeping your momentum. I wonder if naming everyone (at least per introduction) may help. For instance, using a system like...


Grandpa drove north in early summer,

never calling ahead.
He'd surprise us with late evening arrival,
expecting dinner.
Mom would make him another—
that's how she was raised.

His dad, Thomas Jesse III  (and so on)
left him without any warning

it's a bit of a cheat but might give clarity and at the same time tie in with your title. 

The Third & Fourth Generation
       ~Numbers 14:18

Grandpa drove north in early summer, "never" implies summers should be plural
never calling ahead.
He'd surprise us with late evening arrival,
expecting dinner.
Mom would make him another— "another" doesn't work. He hasn't eaten yet
that's how she was raised.

His dad left him without any warning
when he was seven.
His grandmother fed him without complaint—
that's how she was raised.

His grandfather's closest friend was opium. and secret lover 
They bonded during the civil war
over rifle fire and a shattered leg
that never fully healed.
They swapped war stories in silence
of the departed who wouldn't die.
It vanished in 1906, kinda would prefer "she" to "it" here, to enforce the personification
pulled from the drug store's shelves.

He wept to his wife too many times, I think you could tighten these 3 lines (it's the prosey you mentioned)
and she told him, "Just go ahead
and do it already."
Grandpa found him the next morning
hanging by his neck from a cross-beam in the barn.

Grandpa would start wearing sweaters
the last week of August.
My brother and I would wake unaware
to a crisp, windy morning—
mom's face left behind to tell us
that he drove south during the night.

That's how he raised us, with an unsparing rod: unspared? not sure
grandfathers vanish, so don't ever care.

I'm slightly unhappy with the piece, and I don't know why. Perhaps it's too whiny at the end? Is it overwritten? Underwritten? Does it read like prose? Something's missing   

Not reading anything whiney. Hope some of this helps,
Paul

[Fearful Symmetry]

For me, this poem started in the 3rd stanza and emotionally ended in the 4th.

I actually couldn't agree more. 

Thanks for the Stafford recommendation -- I adore him. 

Welcome to the Pen, Tyger. 

Thanks!

[Lizzie]

Hi, Tranquility. Thanks for offering your thoughts. I have some follow up queries if you feel so inclined to address any or all. No pressure, as always. Just want to make sure that I'm tracking. 

His grandmother fed him without complaint—              just fed him?  this section seems too abbreviated, surely she felt more about him than this. -- I'm sure that this is true, it just didn't feel particularly germane; but if there's desire for more of the female side to the story, I'll think on that. Perhaps it feels to you like a reference to her was just plopped there and left undeveloped? 
that's how she was raised. 

Last lines are problematic, so maybe a more full fledged final stanza. -- just trying to be clear, you didn't like the final two lines because it felt too compacted? I heard your criticism of "spare the rod, spoil the child," and I will think on that (I'm thinking of it more as discipline than punishment, but I hear you). I think I'm missing something, because I hear you saying that I should expand on something problematic, and I'm completely lost. 

Perhaps it's too whiny at the end?  I don't hear it as whiny.  But he didn't exactly raise you, he just made sporadic, somewhat mysterious visits. -- I mean, to me, if a grandparent lives with you every summer, they have a hand in child rearing. Perhaps this is a cultural thing, a difference in expectations surrounding family structures? Maybe a wording issue? 

---

Hi, Knot. Thanks for taking time on my piece, I appreciate it. I can tell that the piece is suffering from a dreadful lack of clarity, and I thank you for pointing out what's the most confusing. The point you raise about a possible refrain in intriguing, and I'll think on that. 

Grandpa drives north/south (is he Mom's father?) -- No, everything is through the paternal lineage. 
Greatgrandpa left when Grandad was seven -- yes
Greatgreatgrandpa addicted to opium/kills himself -- yes
Greatgreatgrandma unsympathetic (is she the same one in S2 who raises Grandpa?) -- yes and yes

Had to look up the Bible quote, and was left wondering what is the crime being punished. -- I was thinking of it more as discipline than punishment, but I will likely cut this part or rephrase since it's causing widespread confusion. 

The last two lines are an attempt to explain the sudden coming and going. It's a kind of self-discipline, always prepared to lose anyone or anything at a moment's notice. Always ready to run, to detatch. If it's punishment, it could be seen as punishing a part of the self that is getting too attached to people around them, too dependent. Yeah, I would say that desire is seen as weakness and so it gets punished. But, punishment....discipline....I feel like I'm splitting hairs now. 

---

Hi, Bryn. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have a couple of questions, but there's no pressure to respond. 

That's how he raised us, with unsparing rod:     I do think that the poem should end with something like this but it doesn't feel like he raised the narrator.  He raised the Mom and so on....
grandfathers vanish, so don't ever care.
I addressed this with Tranquility as well: I'm curious about what the definition of "raising" is. To me, a grandparent that spends every summer with your family has enough of an influence on a child to justify categorization as one of the people who helped raise the child. Kind of a 'takes a village' sort of thing. I can see how mom being the one who cooks could lead people to believe that it's mom's dad, so I'll need to fix that. 

I also sense that there are aspects of the storyline that still aren't clear to the narrator and thus aren't fully articulated.  Of corse that would require more than just rearranging some stanzas. -- Usually I insist on a manner of speaking about poems where we differentiate between the speaker and the author, but I think the artifice needs to come down here for me to understand. I think that you mean that, as a writer, there's a lot of things that I don't know or would have no way of knowing, and so I can't relate them reliably in a piece because of the limitations of time and distance. Or are you saying that the voice in the piece comes across as an unreliable narrator (as a poetic device)? Does the voice sound like a child, and then they wouldn't be able to understand because of the limitations of the child mind? 

---

His grandfather's closest friend was opium. and secret lover 
They bonded during the civil war
over rifle fire and a shattered leg
that never fully healed.
They swapped war stories in silence
of the departed who wouldn't die.
It vanished in 1906, kinda would prefer "she" to "it" here, to enforce the personification
pulled from the drug store's shelves.

This is clever, Tiger. I guess it probably does feel like there's something illicit about the opium addiction. 
What's all this tendency to see women as vices? 

[Knot]

Hi Lizzie,

thanks for the explanations.

No, everything is through the paternal lineage.

And yet there's no 'dad' in the piece. Maybe this is why I thought he might be the mom's father.

causing widespread confusion.

It certainly doesn't seem to be making a positive contribution.

The last two lines are an attempt to explain the sudden coming and going.

If the poem hasn't done that by now (and I think it probably has) these don't explain so much as complain. They also state something (unsparing rod) which isn't shown in the rest of the poem.

It's a kind of self-discipline,

We might quibble over 'self-discipline' but it certainly seems a sad state of affairs.

Just to butt in on the 'raising' issue. There isn't an example in the poem of him actively doing anything that might be easily understood as 'raising'. He turns up (or not) expects to be served then leaves when it suits him. Not seeing what contribution he actually makes (to the family of N.)

Best, Knot

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