To Me, Fair Friend, You Never Can Be Old
#1
I must ask of you, my darling,
Only once, but frankly so,
Searing, single, fearing question.–– 
Moments come, and moments go.

Though I know your love is truthful,
Even truest love grows cold.
Therefore I must needs petition.
Will you love me still when I am old?

Down the stream of life together,
Joyously sailing side by side,
Hoping on that bright day to anchor
Safe beyond the surging tide.

Cloudless sky may stay today, but as
Night falls nimbi could unfold
So as flagrant winds accuse us
Will you love me still when I am old?

Morning will soon begin waning,
And its evening bells be tolled,
But my heart shall know no sadness
If you’ll love me still when I am old.

So as hairs turn shades of snow, and
Dimming eyes reach out without hold
I will claim of you your promise
Worth to me a world of gold.


Will you love me still when I am old?






O sweet love, my ancient answer
Changeless from my virgin spoken word,
Surely furnished from heaven’s throne,
Surely relays, you are succored.

Love, dear dove, can never wane
This eternal flame has just
Begun warming your precious soul.–
Though all rusts and turns to dust,

Even morning’s sun will pass away
Fading, dimming, obscuring your view,
Truest gladness grows beholding
You in evening’s glistening dew.

Even mighty time can’t touch
That which I love about you;
Vaunted time incapable to
Alter the Beauty of you.

For within you you let shine forth
That which I most dearly love
Ever sweetly you exude that
Beautiful, Glorious Dove.

Clothed in beauty by His Glory
My love for you cannot fade.–
I will always love you even past
Death and time’s long dark shade.


You can never grow old!  Be not dismayed.
Joshua J. Smith
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#2
Though I know your love is truthful,
Even truest love grows cold.
Therefore I must need petition. ...........this line I changed from needs to need

Will you love me still when I am old?

I love the concept of this poem and it actually made me feel a deep rooted emotion I have not felt in a long time. That of being accepted just as you are. That's what I got from it anyways.
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#3
This is a good poem for 'Basic'. There is the Shakespearean allusion in your title, and an attempt to write in a formal, metrical style.
The first part of the poem does a good job of developing the metaphor of sailing down life's river over a few stanzas. Even so, there are a number of cliches such as 'sailing down the stream of life' but looking to anchor 'safe beyond the surging tide'. The latter is a seafaring cliche that makes no sense in the context of sailing down a river. There is no reason why winds should be 'flagrant' (from the Latin for blazing, and used in the context of something burning) - it just seems to be there because you were looking for a poetic sounding two syllable filler word.

So lots of room for improvement, but a good start.
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#4
Killingwithasmilexd,
I am very pleased you enjoyed the concept.  I had fun trying to thresh it out.  That acceptance no matter what is one of the concepts that I had hoped to illustrate.  Thank you for reading this and commenting to me what you received from it.

Busker,
Thank you so very much for your response, and the time you invested in this.  I admit I was probably a little too ambitious for my current abilities.  
I chose the common abstraction of love and used cliches in a desire to not convolute my attempt at symbolism.  That symbolism was obviously not ascertainable.  Since I was using common cliche I tried to compound them in a unique image.  The design for the sailing thing was to be as if you sailed down a river, say the Mississippi, towards the ocean.  While clearing the delta you face the ocean tides.  The illusion was to be that the other side of those tides (the destination) is unseen and in the unknown.

As to the usage of "flagrant": I am super pleased that you harkened back to the etymology.  That word was specifically chosen for it roots. Without saying, "flaming funeral pyre" I was endeavoring to show flames on the winds surrounding them.  I tried do the cliche of pyres at death differently.  The term "flagrant winds" was also used by an 18th century religious scholar in an essay on elocution.  That checked so many boxes of where I wanted to go with this (antiquated verbiage; unique image; the multiple usage effect of flames to help tie in the symbolism aspect; Mr. Enfield's use of it in collusion with a water theme; the assonance with "stay", "may", "day", and even how some pronounce "accuse"; its usage by a religious author; and yes, it did fit with the trochaic rhythm).  This is in no way a defense in an attempt to say I made a good word choice.  It is clearly evident I did not.  However, I did want to state that it was not simply a "filler" word choice.

I am grateful for your incredibly kind words, and will strive to improve.  I know that this piece is severely lacking, but was unclear as to exactly what and where it is lacking.  Your response was very instrumental in helping me see how it fails for the reader, and that is exactly what I was desiring.  Any other points where I need to improve or adjust are welcome.  I do understand that there are a myriad of issues with this piece, I just do not quite understand what those issues exactly are.  Thank you again for your time.
Joshua J. Smith
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#5
(01-09-2020, 12:32 PM)Joshua Smith Wrote:  Killingwithasmilexd,
I am very pleased you enjoyed the concept.  I had fun trying to thresh it out.  That acceptance no matter what is one of the concepts that I had hoped to illustrate.  Thank you for reading this and commenting to me what you received from it.

Busker,


Thank you so very much for your response, and the time you invested in this.  I admit I was probably a little too ambitious for my current abilities.  

I chose the common abstraction of love and used cliches in a desire to not convolute my attempt at symbolism.  That symbolism was obviously not ascertainable.  Since I was using common cliche I tried to compound them in a unique image.  The design for the sailing thing was to be as if you sailed down a river, say the Mississippi, towards the ocean.  While clearing the delta you face the ocean tides.  The illusion was to be that the other side of those tides (the destination) is unseen and in the unknown.

As to the usage of "flagrant": I am super pleased that you harkened back to the etymology.  That word was specifically chosen for it roots. Without saying, "flaming funeral pyre" I was endeavoring to show flames on the winds surrounding them.  I tried do the cliche of pyres at death differently.  The term "flagrant winds" was also used by an 18th century religious scholar in an essay on elocution.  That checked so many boxes of where I wanted to go with this (antiquated verbiage; unique image; the multiple usage effect of flames to help tie in the symbolism aspect; Mr. Enfield's use of it in collusion with a water theme; the assonance with "stay", "may", "day", and even how some pronounce "accuse"; its usage by a religious author; and yes, it did fit with the trochaic rhythm).  This is in no way a defense in an attempt to say I made a good word choice.  It is clearly evident I did not.  However, I did want to state that it was not simply a "filler" word choice.

I am grateful for your incredibly kind words, and will strive to improve.  I know that this piece is severely lacking, but was unclear as to exactly what and where it is lacking.  Your response was very instrumental in helping me see how it fails for the reader, and that is exactly what I was desiring.  Any other points where I need to improve or adjust are welcome.  I do understand that there are a myriad of issues with this piece, I just do not quite understand what those issues exactly are.  Thank you again for your time.

Thank you for taking the crit in the right spirit. 
Small clarification on 'flagrant winds' - I didn't mean to say that it was an expression which could never be used. For instance, we've suffered many a flagrant wind day here in the bushfire season down under recently. However, if the day is calm and sunny, and the night holds the possibility of nimbus clouds, then flagrant winds - while still a possibility in the face of an unpredictable weather change - don't quite fit the extended metaphor.
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#6
(01-08-2020, 11:21 AM)Joshua Smith Wrote:  I must ask of you, my darling,
Only once, but frankly so,
Searing, single, fearing question.–– 
Moments come, and moments go.

Though I know your love is truthful,
Even truest love grows cold.
Therefore I must needs petition.
Will you love me still when I am old?

Down the stream of life together,
Joyously sailing side by side,
Hoping on that bright day to anchor
Safe beyond the surging tide.

Cloudless sky may stay today, but as
Night falls nimbi could unfold
So as flagrant winds accuse us
Will you love me still when I am old?

Morning will soon begin waning,
And its evening bells be tolled,
But my heart shall know no sadness
If you’ll love me still when I am old.

So as hairs turn shades of snow, and
Dimming eyes reach out without hold
I will claim of you your promise
Worth to me a world of gold.


Will you love me still when I am old?






O sweet love, my ancient answer
Changeless from my virgin spoken word,
Surely furnished from heaven’s throne,
Surely relays, you are succored.

Love, dear dove, can never wane
This eternal flame has just
Begun warming your precious soul.–
Though all rusts and turns to dust,

Even morning’s sun will pass away
Fading, dimming, obscuring your view,
Truest gladness grows beholding
You in evening’s glistening dew.

Even mighty time can’t touch
That which I love about you;
Vaunted time incapable to
Alter the Beauty of you.

For within you you let shine forth
That which I most dearly love
Ever sweetly you exude that
Beautiful, Glorious Dove.

Clothed in beauty by His Glory
My love for you cannot fade.–
I will always love you even past
Death and time’s long dark shade.


You can never grow old!  Be not dismayed.
It's a really beautiful poem but the rest of it seems cliché and unnecessary, Was that huge spacing for another poem or is it all in one?
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#7
(01-14-2020, 11:30 AM)JaggedEdge Wrote:  It's a really beautiful poem but the rest of it seems cliché and unnecessary, Was that huge spacing for another poem or is it all in one?

In the first six stanzas there is a question posed; in the final six stanzas a response is given.  In this I attempted to take a simple back and forth that is easy to recognize (hence the clichés) and try my hand at broad symbolism.  The one posing a question and the responder are suppose to represent something slightly less cliché.  It is evident it did not land.  The concept is geared toward a particular audience, but I had hoped that I would be able to convey an undercurrent of meaning even if people outside the audience were unable to see the particulars.  Unfortunately I am not currently capable of that.  Thank you for your response, and I am glad you liked the fist part.    Oh yeah, the big space.  Ideally the response portion is in a separate column beside the portion that poses the question.  A left page vs. right page situation.
I appreciate the time you extended towards this piece.
Joshua J. Smith
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#8
.
Hi Joshua,
like the ambition, but it seems rather overwritten.

For instance, lines 3-4 (in the first verse of both parts) are an interruption that detracts rather than adds.

Just a few points (given it's in basic)

I must ask of you, my darling,
Only once, but frankly so,
Searing, single, fearing question.––
Moments come, and moments go.

Though I know your love is truthful,
- either 'love' or 'truthful' is misused here.
Even truest love grows cold.
- 'truest/cold/ doesn't really work.
Grandest passions/Youthful fires may grow cold.
Therefore I must need petition.
- I thought 'needs' worked.  Though it might be better swapping 'need' for 'you'
Will you love me still when I am old?
- Will you love me though I grow old?

Down the stream of life together,
- 'stream' doesn't really work, I think, it begs the question why not 'river'?
Joyously sailing side by side,
- we sail, joyous, side by side
Hoping on that bright day to anchor
- hoping that one day we'll anchor
Safe beyond the surging tide.
- surging' seems weak, given the context.

I not sure if the next two verses add much, they feel rather like repetition than development.

...
I will claim of you your promise
- by the time I get here, I'm wondering why it isn't 'thee' instead of 'you'
Worth to me a world of gold.
- how is it 'worth' that? By which I mean, what is the value of 'gold' in this context?

O sweet love, my ancient answer
- I think you could swap the order of 'ancient' and 'answer'
Changeless from my virgin spoken word,
- 'spoken' seems awkward.
Surely furnished from heaven’s throne,
Surely relays, you are succored.


Love, dear dove, can never wane
- so, contradicting the speaker of S2/L2? Fair enough. But where's this speakers evidence?
(It seems to come in the fourth verse of this section, but why doesn't it follow directly?)
The love/dove rhyme is not well done, I think.
This eternal flame has just
Begun warming your precious soul.–
Though all rusts and turns to dust,
- too much going on here, 'dove/wane/flame/warming/rusts/dust'


And I'm puzzled by 'friend' in the title.


B
est, Knot



.
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#9
(01-16-2020, 01:38 AM)Knot Wrote:  

For instance, lines 3-4 (in the first verse of both parts) are an interruption that detracts rather than adds.   


I must ask of you, my darling,
Only once, but frankly so,
Searing, single, fearing question.––
Moments come, and moments go.

Though I know your love is truthful,
- either 'love' or 'truthful' is misused here.
Even truest love grows cold.
- 'truest/cold/ doesn't really work.
Grandest passions/Youthful fires may grow cold.
Therefore I must need petition.
- I thought 'needs' worked.  Though it might be better swapping 'need' for 'you'
Will you love me still when I am old?
- Will you love me though I grow old?

Down the stream of life together,
- 'stream' doesn't really work, I think, it begs the question why not 'river'?
Joyously sailing side by side,
- we sail, joyous, side by side
Hoping on that bright day to anchor
- hoping that one day we'll anchor
Safe beyond the surging tide.
- surging' seems weak, given the context.

I not sure if the next two verses add much, they feel rather like repetition than development.

...
I will claim of you your promise
- by the time I get here, I'm wondering why it isn't 'thee' instead of 'you'
Worth to me a world of gold.
- how is it 'worth' that? By which I mean, what is the value of 'gold' in this context?

O sweet love, my ancient answer
- I think you could swap the order of 'ancient' and 'answer'
Changeless from my virgin spoken word,
- 'spoken' seems awkward.
Surely furnished from heaven’s throne,
Surely relays, you are succored.


Love, dear dove, can never wane
- so, contradicting the speaker of S2/L2? Fair enough. But where's this speakers evidence?
(It seems to come in the fourth verse of this section, but why doesn't it follow directly?)
The love/dove rhyme is not well done, I think.
This eternal flame has just
Begun warming your precious soul.–
Though all rusts and turns to dust,
- too much going on here, 'dove/wane/flame/warming/rusts/dust'


And I'm puzzled by 'friend' in the title.


B
est, Knot

I appreciate your help.  Thank you very much. 

lines 3-4 (in the first verse of both parts) are an interruption that detracts rather than adds.  I will look to alter or remove these lines.

'truest/cold/' doesn't really work.
Grandest passions/Youthful fires may grow cold.  Would "fiercest love" work better?


'stream' doesn't really work, I think, it begs the question why not 'river'?  The goal is to stress the smallness of temporal life.  I am attempting to allude to land streams while also maintaining the context of the ocean metaphor to follow.  The ocean streams (i.e. gulf stream) that literally carry vessels to the other side of the ocean also work to illustrate that even if we stop rowing the stream still carries us forward in life.

'surging' seems weak, given the context.  Do you mean the context in reference to stream, or word definition, or sonically?

I'm wondering why it isn't 'thee' instead of 'you'   You are right it should be "thee".

what is the value of 'gold' in this context?  I will try to rewrite this line.

I think you could swap the order of 'ancient' and 'answer'.  I am contemplating this change.

But where's this speakers evidence?  I am hoping everyone asks this question.  Ideally some key words in the first stanza of the response help to answer this.  The following stanzas were also designed to indicate this.  Ironically the stanza you reference (if you were referring to "mighty time")  is the one that I did not think did this.

And I'm puzzled by 'friend' in the title.  The title is a direct quote from the first line of Shakespeare's Sonnet 104, from which I derived the theme and concept.  The friend would be the one who is asking the question over the first six stanza's, and the one who is being responded to in the final six stanza's.


You gave me a great deal of things to think on.  I am grateful for your valuable information, and the investment you made on this.  
Joshua J. Smith
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#10
(01-16-2020, 07:05 AM)Joshua Smith Wrote:  
'surging' seems weak, given the context.  Do you mean the context in reference to stream, or word definition, or sonically?

Actually I meant in reference to 'safe' - there is nothing necessarily threatening about a (tidal) surge
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#11
(01-16-2020, 08:21 PM)Knot Wrote:  Actually I meant in reference to 'safe' - there is nothing necessarily threatening about a (tidal) surge
Wow! Then we have drastically different concepts of tidal surges.  storm tidestorm floodtidal surge and storm surge are all names for very similar things, and have been used interchangeably even though there are slight technical variances.  I had presumed that even people who do not sail understood the catastrophic capabilities of a tidal surge.  The National Hurricane Center and NOAA in an introduction to their overview of storm surges state the following: "Along the coast, storm surge is often the greatest threat to life and property from a hurricane. In the past, large death tolls have resulted from the rise of the ocean associated with many of the major hurricanes that have made landfall. Hurricane Katrina (2005) is a prime example of the damage and devastation that can be caused by surge. At least 1500 persons lost their lives during Katrina and many of those deaths occurred directly, or indirectly, as a result of storm surge".  I have evidentially overestimated the prevalence of this knowledge.  You are not the first to raise concerns over the usage of "surging tides", but you are the first to tell me the reason behind your concern.  The others probably have similar reasons.  Thank you for your response, it has been immensely beneficial.
Joshua J. Smith
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#12
.
Hi Joshua,
turns out some of us didn't know that a storm surge and a tidal surge were synonyms. Smile
(And in the (helpful) example you quote, they use 'storm' twice.)
I'm also not sure that a 'surging' tide is, necessarily, the same as a 'surge tide'. If you'd written safe beyond the gushing/swelling/swirling tide (all synonymous with surging) there would be no sense of threat, and I think that's where the ambiguity/problem lies. As a matter of curiosity, were you not restricted by the 'side' rhyme would you have said Safe beyond the tidal surge ? Perhaps a modifier for 'surge' would help? Safe beyond the wild/fell surge tide ?


Best, Knot


.
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#13
The
(01-17-2020, 04:23 AM)Knot Wrote:  
Hi Joshua,
turns out some of us didn't know that a storm surge and a tidal surge were synonyms. Smile
(And in the (helpful) example you quote, they use 'storm' twice.)  
The fist line of Wikipedia's page about storm surge: "A storm surgestorm floodtidal surge or storm tide is a coastal flood or tsunami-like phenomenon of rising water commonly associated with low pressure weather systems (such as tropical cyclones and strong extratropical cyclones)."
 
I'm also not sure that a 'surging' tide is, necessarily, the same as a 'surge tide'. If you'd written safe beyond the gushing/swelling/swirling tide (all synonymous with surging) there would be no sense of threat, and I think that's where the ambiguity/problem lies.
The American Heritage Dictionary [A dictionary recommended by several  lexicographers] has the following entry for "surge":
v. surgedsurg·ingsurg·es
v.intr.
1. To rise and move in a billowing or swelling manner.
2. To roll or be tossed about on waves, as a boat.
3. To move like advancing waves: The fans surged forward to see the movie star.
4. To increase suddenlyAs favorable reviews came out, interest in the software surged.
5. To improve one's performance suddenly, especially in bettering one's standing in a competition.
6. Nautical To slip around a windlass. Used of a rope.

v.tr.
1. To make a dramatic increase in"Since the attacks in Paris, we've surged intelligence-sharing with our European allies" (Barack Obama).
2. Nautical To loosen or slacken (a cable) suddenly.

n.
1. A powerful wave or swell of water.
2. a. A sudden rushing motion like that of a great waveThe surge of the herd forced some animals into the river.
b. The forward and backward motion of a ship subjected to wave action.
3. a. A sudden on rush or increasea surge of joy; a surge in prices.
b. A period of intense effort that improves a competitor's standing, as in a race.
c. A sudden, transient increase or oscillation in electric current or voltage.
d. Astronomy A brief increase in the intensity of solar activity such as X-ray emission, solar wind, solar flares, and prominences.
The Online Etymology Dictionary informs us that surge is derived: from Latin surgere "to rise, arise, get up, mount up, ascend; attack,
I struggle finding any other modifier as intense as "surge", and as closely related to waves and water.  If the reader does not think that "surging tide" is the same as "surge tide" then I believe the poem will remain the same if they modify "tide" with "surging" and its accepted definition.
  
As a matter of curiosity, were you not restricted by the 'side' rhyme would you have said Safe beyond the tidal surge?
I would not have, nor was I restricted by it.  After jotting down thoughts and ideas I started jotting down lines.  "Beyond the surging tide" was one of the original lines. "Side" came about latter after parsing down one of the other lines.  I believe the fist daft of this poem had couplets and and pentameter lines, and the side/tide couplet was in the first stanza.
 
Perhaps a modifier for 'surge' would help? Safe beyond the wild/fell surge tide?
Maybe it would, but it would probably be better to strike the line.  Surging tide has been consistently considered by the readers as problematic.  Ironically from one of the early drafts it was a phrase that was recommended as one to build around.  But since then it has only garnered the reader's ire.


I believe that every line and every word of a poem should be chosen with intense intent.  I may not always accomplish that, but I am foolish enough to believe that most of the time I do.  Our discussions have been a great emphasizer of that for me.  These discussions also emphasize that I am severely lacking in ability to convey that meaning and intent effectively. Thank you again for everything you have done.  The majority find that going back and forth with me is too tedious, but I am able to attain a great deal of information through these discourses.  Thank you for your endurance and patience.
Joshua J. Smith
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#14
(01-08-2020, 11:21 AM)Joshua Smith Wrote:  I must ask of you, my darling,
Only once, but frankly so,
Searing, single, fearing question.–– 
Moments come, and moments go.

Though I know your love is truthful,
Even truest love grows cold.
Therefore I must needs petition.
Will you love me still when I am old?

Down the stream of life together,
Joyously sailing side by side,
Hoping on that bright day to anchor
Safe beyond the surging tide.

Cloudless sky may stay today, but as
Night falls nimbi could unfold
So as flagrant winds accuse us
Will you love me still when I am old?

Morning will soon begin waning,
And its evening bells be tolled,
But my heart shall know no sadness
If you’ll love me still when I am old.

So as hairs turn shades of snow, and
Dimming eyes reach out without hold                 
I will claim of you your promise
Worth to me a world of gold.                               Sweet love poem, Kinda reminded me of that old Beetle song, When I'm 64.... lyrics being...,Will you still love me  
                                                                        when I'm 64. I like  your rhythmical  meter and rhyme in most of the verses. The last verse seems a bit off in
                                                                        timing. also might re-think the word choice here........dimming eyes reach... maybe .dimming eyes fade  
Will you love me still when I am old?                   without control... Hard to fathom eyes reaching out. Rhythm is off in the fourth verse also...these types of poems are
                                                                        rather difficult...  that said, you did quite well   





O sweet love, my ancient answer
Changeless from my virgin spoken word,
Surely furnished from heaven’s throne,
Surely relays, you are succored.

Love, dear dove, can never wane
This eternal flame has just
Begun warming your precious soul.–
Though all rusts and turns to dust,

Even morning’s sun will pass away
Fading, dimming, obscuring your view,
Truest gladness grows beholding
You in evening’s glistening dew.

Even mighty time can’t touch
That which I love about you;
Vaunted time incapable to
Alter the Beauty of you.

For within you you let shine forth
That which I most dearly love
Ever sweetly you exude that
Beautiful, Glorious Dove.

Clothed in beauty by His Glory
My love for you cannot fade.–
I will always love you even past
Death and time’s long dark shade.


You can never grow old!  Be not dismayed.
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#15
Audrey,
Hello and welcome.  You are very kind. Thank you for your supportive praise.
Joshua J. Smith
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#16
.
Hi Joshua,
purely out of curiosity, but I was wondering, in your overall 'stream' metaphor, what precisely (and your use of surging tide is, apparently, precise)
did 'surging tide' represent?


Best, Knot


.
Reply
#17
(01-17-2020, 08:07 PM)Knot Wrote:  
Hi Joshua,
purely out of curiosity, but I was wondering, in your overall 'stream' metaphor, what precisely (and your use of surging tide is, apparently, precise)
did 'surging tide' represent?

Best, Knot
The main representation is a barrier/obstacle to the “beyond” which is not fully seen or known, at lest by the one posing the question.
Joshua J. Smith
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#18
.
Hi Joshua.
Right. Thanks. But Smile
barriers/obstacles (to the beyond or otherwise) may appear at any point (along the stream of life), not so a surging tide.
That is, by definition, fixed to a specific place/area - so what is it representing that can only occur at this point?.


Best, Knot


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Reply
#19
When you are on a coastal stream (i.e. Gulf Stream) the tides are always on your side.

In addition a barrier/obstacle may be at a fixed point, but that does not mean that you you know exactly at what point you are in relation to that obstacle. If you are going down the Mississippi River then the tide is at a fixed point.  But how long will it take you to get there?  Now we as humans have charted that path so if we are able to determine where we are on that path we can determine how far away we are from the end point.  But we do not have a complete and comprehensive map of our lives.  So death may be at a fixed point in our lives, but how long will it take to get there?
Joshua J. Smith
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