Don't blame the form
(06-25-2017, 07:21 AM)rowens Wrote:  We're living in a multimedia context. If you put ode to joy over a suicide or rape scene in a movie it's going to change ode to joy. But the fact that ode to joy is known to be a joyous song adds to the horror. But since such things as that have been done to death, there needs to be a new way. Either people are going to recognize these cultural cues/or they're not. So I don't think we're arguing on anything. I'm just making broad statements that I tend to believe that just goes along with me just talking, and like Tan Lin says, I had to go through my bookshelf a while to find a good quote, ''After a certain point, there are no more things to be said, talking is a nonsensical covering for the rude silence that cannot be concealed.'' I used that quote at the beginning of a self-published book years ago that I never published.

I don't like beat poetry.


yes, well, just to keep on track, i'm specifically talking about this phrase "allusive value" [i.e. form has a value in so far as it relates to something else with more cultural value]. what i'm suggesting is that traditional forms have a certain intrinsic value that is not simply a reference to other, better, older, poems.
take 'ode to joy', for example. beethoven is using musical structures and patterns which can be described and followed using music theory [whether he did this through natural intuition or not, is by the by]. the mere fact that playing 'ode to joy' over a rape scene would produce a hegelian synthesis is testament to the intrinsic value of that musical structure. The Smiths do it all the time.
in terms of poetry, the limerick, say, has a buoyant rhythm... it just does, and however you choose to fill a limerick [with words and subject matter] the form itself has this naturally cheerful quality, and its value is not that it alludes to other, funnier, limericks [of course, we do realise that limericks are out there, in the wild, but that is neither here nor there]. and i don't think this is a controversial opinion, at all. however, it seems to become, or be made, controversial as the forms become more complex, and how they work, subtler. villanelles and sonnets and the more obscure ones--that i won't even attempt to name let alone spell correctly--are difficult to do and difficult to read and difficult to understand and appreciate, so we don't bother, do we, because it's all pretentious elitist waffle, anyway, right? and i'm an artist, fat with genius. so, fuck you and your rules, man. peace V

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