Why Should I Edit?
#21
I've split some posts off. I get confused too but please try to remember which forum we're in. Thanks, ella
billy wrote:welcome to the site. make it your own, wear it like a well loved slipper and wear it out. ella pleads:please click forum titles for posting guidelines, important threads. New poet? Try Poetic DevicesandWard's Tips

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#22
(07-14-2016, 09:13 PM)UselessBlueprint Wrote:  Well, this thread was a fun read. It used to be that I would only edit during the initial phase of writing or if I had typos. I came here for a fresh and less-pretentious environment to work on poetry, and I like what I have seen so far. Has it helped me as a writer? I'd like to think so. I see a benefit to editing, most likely because, here, I have the knowledge-bank of some very skilled writers that are kind enough to freely share their "expertise."




(07-14-2016, 04:43 AM)lizziep Wrote:  I think I'm quickly becoming Leanne's problem student. Undecided You know what they say: 80% of your time is spent on 20% of your students. 

But 80% of your profit comes from 20% of your customers. Which lens do you prefer?

Good point. You've made me feel better about taking up so much of everyone's airtime Big Grin
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#23
in my opinion, i think when people speak of a 'god' given talent they are assuming the talent is simply for the act of writing poetry, or, having 'a way with words' with no causal process. loads of people have a way with words and have a natural inclination for writing. we see it more now, what with the internet--a lot of folks talk about how the internet has degraded language, etc. they say "stay away from the youtube comment section"; but from my own personal experience, the youtube comment section is full of very articulate vile little pricks, all saying the same nasty shit beautifully [albeit, unoriginal and borrowed]--but i think, in reality, the talent in writing great poetry [or just writing great anything] is being a quick study; not to just go blindly writing and by some divine miracle, genetic predetermination, or unconscious mimicry produce great work. some would like to keep the romantic idea alive that there is no logical causation and poems just appear in us [or from us] like spontaneous generation. they are opposed to the mapping of a process because it alienates them. there is the misconception that tradition says "if you do X, Y, and Z, you will write great stuff" the implication being "if you cannot [or have no inclination to] do X, Y, and Z, you cannot write great stuff". and of course, there is some fight back against this: "fuck you! i can write whatever i like and it will be great!" and not just from the pretentious. but this is just laziness. and having this attitude [which i am sure we've all had at some point] one will never, or will only by accident, write truly inspired poems. even the innovators, who were ahead of their time, would have studied and understood the rules of the game; and understood them quickly, deeply, and well--and this actually does have a biological explanation--and used or misused them very deliberately, with varying degrees of success. einstein may have had an original idea, been unfathomably creative, but he didn't reinvent mathematics in order to think it--in fact, kicking against the fundamentals of mathematics would have slowed down his creative process [like i said in another thread, an understanding of rules and guides, etc. clear a space, allow a freedom, for one to truly be creative]. so, far from not needing a standard and accepted tools for writing, the great poets are able to find and utilise the tools more quickly and, as a consequence, more creatively. and by degrees, we're all trying to head in that direction. well, some of us not so much. and i am not saying that not being tooled-up necessarily means you won't write well, but i doubt it will ever be consistent and it'll be slow going. and, i think for the majority of people, myself included, it takes time to fully appreciate exactly why the such-and-such rule or [for all you pussy millennials] guides have endured and why they're agreed upon standards. for example, after years of vaguely hearing mention of a 'show don't tell' rule, and ignoring it, once you actually clearly see and appreciate the benefit of applying this principle [genuinely understand its function] it becomes so much easier to manipulate and experiment with effectively. you decide exactly when to tell and how this improves the work. and for me, this is true individualism. it is being in control, not just of what you want to say and how you want to say it, but also it gives greater control over exactly how it's received. one can write surreal streams of nonsense deliberately, but if it is unclear you know what you're doing or that you are in control they will be read as if you are an idiot that just didn't know how to spell; of course, one doesn't always want to dictate how something is read, leave it open for interpretation, etc. but on the whole, it is all about gaining knowledge in order that one become ever more deliberate, ever closer to true Self-expression. not just a monkey banging randomly at a typewriter and occasionally getting lucky.
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#24
Or, as I like to put it, learn the rules and then break them with style.
It could be worse
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#25
(07-15-2016, 04:36 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Or, as I like to put it, learn the rules and then break them with style.

c thats y u rite them thair poims gud: conseyesiness
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#26
I could do it in
haiku, but I just don't like
not enjambing stuff
It could be worse
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#27
I hope this doesn't
descend into a thread of
counting syllables.

I don't like haiku....
If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

"Or, if a poet writes a poem, then immediately commits suicide (as any decent poet should)..." -- Erthona
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#28
(07-15-2016, 07:29 AM)UselessBlueprint Wrote:  I hope this doesn't
descend into a thread of
counting syllables.

I don't like haiku....

ray's post

good poetry is good poetry, but don't worry, it's unlikely that a thread of Leanne's would become that unless she was laughing her ass off, an unlikely prospect in haiku land.
billy wrote:welcome to the site. make it your own, wear it like a well loved slipper and wear it out. ella pleads:please click forum titles for posting guidelines, important threads. New poet? Try Poetic DevicesandWard's Tips

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#29
(07-14-2016, 06:46 AM)ellajam Wrote:  The Stephen Fry? I'm through the first chapter, have to pick it up again, enjoying it so far. Ala rowens, Sad to say I got a retired hardback library copy on the cheap, sad it's not on the shelf but great for me.

Yeah, it's this one. Hey, I'm two pages into the first chapter now! Whoo hoo! Only 300 some pages to go Dodgy

(07-15-2016, 02:04 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  some would like to keep the romantic idea alive that there is no logical causation and poems just appear in us [or from us] like spontaneous generation. they are opposed to the mapping of a process because it alienates them. there is the misconception that tradition says "if you do X, Y, and Z, you will write great stuff" the implication being "if you cannot [or have no inclination to] do X, Y, and Z, you cannot write great stuff". and of course, there is some fight back against this: "fuck you! i can write whatever i like and it will be great!" and not just from the pretentious. but this is just laziness.

Ok, keeping it very real, the poems that I've had the best success with here that people have resonated to, came out of free-writing sessions. I loved the "writing from the heart" exercise that Leanne set up, and I free write every day now. When I deviate from that, I don't have as great of luck. I try all the time to do exercises that I'm supposed to like "write a poem about this" "write a poem that uses this technique" "write something in this style" and it hardly ever works. My last flaming wipeout was because I was trying to do a new exercise. And that's ok, because I need to learn and try new things to see what works for me and what doesn't. But, honestly, for me the best stuff I've done did originate from within, and I can't always control it or make it appear. I hear what you're saying about consistency, and I don't know what to do about that except to free-write every day so that maybe once a week I'll glean something that I can use.

Now, that having been said, after the big mess of word vomit has been produced, that's when learned techniques are essential to try and mold it into something compelling. I love the idea of having a roadmap for the creative process, but that has never worked for me. But, I've only been writing since March, so take it for what it's worth.

I almost didn't post The Watch Man because it came out mostly intact from a frenzied free-writing session, and I only did minimal edits, and that seemed lazy!!! So, you're cracking me up with this laziness notion because I worked much harder on the flaming wipeout than the one that seems to be working. I don't think it's fair to automatically equate failure with laziness.

Are there a lot of lazy writers on this site? Do people just post any old thing here? I'm not sure.
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#30
no lizzie but often poetry fails because people are out and out lazy. sloppy grammar, worn out cliches, bad rhyme {i mean really bad rhyme} wrong tense and these are the tip of the ice berg. if you don't know good punctuation or grammar then fine, but often people don't use any because they think it poetic, in truth they're too lazy {there's always exceptions of course} but yeah lazy def plays it's part in poor poetry.
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#31
Fits of madness are definitely very good -- many of the more celebrated works of poetry seem to have been written under the influence of sex, drugs, music, schizophrenia, spiritual ecstasy -- but ultimately the percentage of what ends up being either not-cliche or not-unintelligible are determined by prior knowledge. Ultimately, the mad self can only work with what the sane self has gathered: if the sane self didn't bother to learn French, the mad self's attempts to make French poetry would suck dicks like a Midnight Cowboy, for example, unless the entire self really tempted God for poetry (in which case, this being an age requiring a different set of spiritual gifts, there's a high chance it's the devil who granted glossolalia -- but that's for another time). I've been using madness as a tool for writing since a few months before I joined this site, and I'm pretty sure the ratio of crap versus good stuff has been decreasing steadily the more I learned from this site and beyond -- the more I learned the rules, or rather the more rules I learned, the more ways I found of expressing myself, of talking like a right, honorable Asshole (xD). Which is of course what makes my earlier, deleted comment a compliment -- I find that the better the artist, the more of an asshole he is, at least until his dick has withered enough ---

and which I think is what Boccaccio meant, at least in part. Critiquing -- analyzing your and more importantly others' works -- ultimately plays a part in the above; editing, well I think other people can do it just as good as you, and if your poem needs a lot of editing either you're working on a really long piece, you're working on a properly metered piece, or, again, you're not as good yet (and, of course, to edit is to critique); and struggling to compose, well, again unless the piece is really long or is metered (or is really, really intricate, although I don't think you can make an Iliad with just three short lines), you're not as good yet. On that third point, ultimately the stuff I posted here that I properly, aesthetically like are, barring the one or two pieces that actually follow rules I didn't myself construct, stuff I just shat out in one sitting, barely any editing before or after posting, whereas the stuff I actually struggled to compose ended up being cliched, overworked, or at least forgettable -- although perhaps it's a matter of personality, too. And on that second point, again, to edit is to critique, and with the right sanctioning, to critique is to edit -- that is to say, if you properly considered a piece once it's been constructed and thought, "hey, this is great!", and so didn't edit, then you're not being lazy, everything just went right for you beforehand.
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#32
(07-15-2016, 10:18 AM)lizziep Wrote:  
(07-14-2016, 06:46 AM)ellajam Wrote:  The Stephen Fry? I'm through the first chapter, have to pick it up again, enjoying it so far. Ala rowens, Sad to say I got a retired hardback library copy on the cheap, sad it's not on the shelf but great for me.

Yeah, it's this one. Hey, I'm two pages into the first chapter now! Whoo hoo! Only 300 some pages to go Dodgy

(07-15-2016, 02:04 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  some would like to keep the romantic idea alive that there is no logical causation and poems just appear in us [or from us] like spontaneous generation. they are opposed to the mapping of a process because it alienates them. there is the misconception that tradition says "if you do X, Y, and Z, you will write great stuff" the implication being "if you cannot [or have no inclination to] do X, Y, and Z, you cannot write great stuff". and of course, there is some fight back against this: "fuck you! i can write whatever i like and it will be great!" and not just from the pretentious. but this is just laziness.

Ok, keeping it very real, the poems that I've had the best success with here that people have resonated to, came out of free-writing sessions. I loved the "writing from the heart" exercise that Leanne set up, and I free write every day now. When I deviate from that, I don't have as great of luck. I try all the time to do exercises that I'm supposed to like "write a poem about this" "write a poem that uses this technique" "write something in this style" and it hardly ever works. My last flaming wipeout was because I was trying to do a new exercise. And that's ok, because I need to learn and try new things to see what works for me and what doesn't. But, honestly, for me the best stuff I've done did originate from within, and I can't always control it or make it appear. I hear what you're saying about consistency, and I don't know what to do about that except to free-write every day so that maybe once a week I'll glean something that I can use.

Now, that having been said, after the big mess of word vomit has been produced, that's when learned techniques are essential to try and mold it into something compelling. I love the idea of having a roadmap for the creative process, but that has never worked for me. But, I've only been writing since March, so take it for what it's worth.

I almost didn't post The Watch Man because it came out mostly intact from a frenzied free-writing session, and I only did minimal edits, and that seemed lazy!!! So, you're cracking me up with this laziness notion because I worked much harder on the flaming wipeout than the one that seems to be working. I don't think it's fair to automatically equate failure with laziness.

Are there a lot of lazy writers on this site? Do people just post any old thing here? I'm not sure.

i just lost a big long reply because my fucking browser is a complete fucking cunt, and i hope whoever fucking invented firefox's entire family dies a slow painful death, preferably of aids or cancer!

ok, so there was a blah blah bit at the beginning saying that you raised some interesting points and if it where my aim to produce an internally consistent philosophy from my previous comments i would have to pay them some serious thought. but that isn't my intention and i'm tired so some half-arsed thought will have to do.

i used the example of a highly gifted and talented poet in order to show how rules and guides and received wisdom etc. are not irrelevant. in fact one might say, as i think i did, it is the great poet's intuitive understanding of the standards, the dos and don'ts, what works what doesn't, that is their primary talent. again, like i said, they are a quick study. now, if one wishes to keep hold of some mystical 'unknown', then call it 'intuition'. but i think even this can be explained by genetics and biology. regardless, intuition is intuition and we all have it to varying degrees, but the point is if it is the case that the distinguishing characteristic of the great poet is their intuitive grasp of the fundamentals within the system [which allows them the freedom to be creative], then the rest of us have something to aim at. we may not have an intuitive understanding as deep and comprehensive as the gifted, but we can learn. it'll take us more time and practice, but if we are willing [and not completely retarded] nothing is stopping us from writing the greatest poetry ever written anywhere ever in the history of the universe and time itself! what will make this less likely is if we say "fuck your rules. i'm gonna wing it, see what happens." this is laziness.
as for your anecdotal argument based on your own experience, your success is probably part luck, part intuition and part unconscious application of conscious learning [remember, when i talk about rules, i am also including all the basics, spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc.]. but whatever it is, those poems are not being judge well because you have abandoned all standards. the opposite is the case. by hook or by crook you have hit them. so even if you do have a little poem gremlin living in your belly churning out these well received free-written poems, then he is most certainly referring to the rule book. and even then, YOU are consciously choosing which ones are worth keeping, right? so, even this choosing is against a standard, and i would say a common standard.

anyway, fading fast. i will just address your last point about laziness. i think you may have misunderstood me, or i am misunderstanding you. what i meant was, to give up on the process because it might involve some effort is lazy. the formula might look something like this:

i want to write a poem.
in order to write a poem remember do X, Y, and Z.
i cannot understand X, Y, and Z. i feel alienated.
maybe try a bit harder.
no, fuck you, man! i am the greatest poet that ever lived! i don't need to try!
yeah, but ya poem's shit, mate.
this is the greatest poem that ever was written! you just don't understand!
no, i studied creative writing at university and have a phd in english literature. i fully understand why, how, and even when your poem is shit.
well my mum says it's THE shit.
she has a phd in literature i presume?
nah, she's a waitress at hooters. i actually had a really difficult childhood. my father was a raging alcoholic, my biological mother was a crack addicted prostitute who would regularly invite men back to rape me for money to feed her habit. i ended up running away and living on the streets at 10 years old, begging for food and giving out blow jobs to dirty old men in even dirtier toilet cubicles for money to mainline myself into oblivion. . .
yeah, see, when you write 'roses are red violets are blue my mother's a slut and my life is poo', i don't think you are reaching the full potential of what you have to say. . .

i went off road a bit there, but you get the point. i wasn't calling you lazy. . . just like in the last thread when i wasn't calling you a genius. . . sorry, i couldn't help it. it just came out Smile
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#33
(07-15-2016, 02:39 PM)RiverNotch Wrote:  On that third point, ultimately the stuff I posted here that I properly, aesthetically like are, barring the one or two pieces that actually follow rules I didn't myself construct, stuff I just shat out in one sitting, barely any editing before or after posting, whereas the stuff I actually struggled to compose ended up being cliched, overworked, or at least forgettable -- although perhaps it's a matter of personality, too.

Yes, that happens to me too. Sometimes I work on something for a while because it's just hard but I manage it, other times I just edit it to death and overthink it and it turns out horribly or perhaps not even at all. I agree with you that lots of effort put into a poem don't always pay off. But, sometimes it does.

(07-15-2016, 12:18 PM)billy Wrote:  no lizzie but often poetry fails because people are out and out lazy. sloppy grammar, worn out cliches, bad rhyme {i mean really bad rhyme} wrong tense and these are the tip of the ice berg. if you don't know good punctuation or grammar then fine, but often people don't use any because they think it poetic, in truth they're too lazy  {there's always exceptions of course} but yeah lazy def plays it's part in poor poetry.

Speaking of bad rhyme, I went over to poetry.com just for shits and giggles, and holy eff batman. I just had myself a deliciously sinful laugh at others' expense. I feel dirty Undecided

(07-15-2016, 03:07 PM)shemthepenman Wrote:  i just lost a big long reply because my fucking browser is a complete fucking cunt, and i hope whoever fucking invented firefox's entire family dies a slow painful death, preferably of aids or cancer!

Angry  A plague on their houses! Angry 

I appreciate the time you spent, though. I really do Big Grin

I do understand what you're saying better now. I just felt like your initial response didn't leave room for what I'm experiencing, but I see what you're saying about the rules I've already internalized.

Sleep well big hug
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#34
Just bringing this back as a reminder.
It could be worse
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#35
(07-15-2016, 03:11 PM)Lizzie Wrote:  Speaking of bad rhyme, I went over to poetry.com just for shits and giggles, and holy eff batman. I just had myself a deliciously sinful laugh at others' expense. I feel dirty Undecided

Holy fuck I just went to poetry.com, I have never been there before, but it looks like a fucking hellscape... 'POETS POINTS LEADERBOARD'  and star ratings on poems.

All the poems are rated four stars and above... all the 'reviews' [ew] are just people saying 'wow so amazing five stars really spoke 2 me'

If you get enough points on the site you get a badge (apparently it has a face value of 40 dollars, lmao) 

No wonder people accept garbage as popular poetry if they are willing to accept that shitey site

THANK GOD FOR PIGPEN!!! Or Billy I guess but don't want to massage the ego... [Also happy birthday Billy !]
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