Accentual Verse
#41
(03-25-2014, 10:04 AM)milo Wrote:  
(03-25-2014, 09:59 AM)ellajam Wrote:  
(03-25-2014, 09:48 AM)milo Wrote:  I would disagree that it is not a poem. Also, if you write consistent metric poetry and include 1 or 2 lines where the foot count is off - it does stick out, quite obviously i might add.

No problem on calling it a poem, but we all know not every poetic device improves every poem, they can wreck one just as easily.
I know that in metric poetry a foot off sticks out, I've tripped over my own plenty trying to learn it. But I'm not talking about metered poetry. I don't know how to label some of the poems I write, they sort of come from a perverted tanka force, but that really only matters to me. They sink or rise on their totality.
So are you saying that you don't think it will have any effect on the poem if most lines have 3 stresses and some have 2 or 4?

That is pretty much what I am saying. If you are writing free verse than the break is one of your most important elements and to subrogate it to a beat count is to produce inferior poetry. Others, it would seem, disagree. i wish I still had the writing from my accentual verse days but, unfortunately, it fell to the purge.

There's no way I would sacrifice breaks for this. I love my breaks, and take them often, Smile I was just thinking of trying to maintain the integrity of the poem while swapping out a word or two in spots to change the stress patterns. It's not all or nothing, yanno.
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#42
(03-25-2014, 10:17 AM)ellajam Wrote:  
(03-25-2014, 10:04 AM)milo Wrote:  
(03-25-2014, 09:59 AM)ellajam Wrote:  No problem on calling it a poem, but we all know not every poetic device improves every poem, they can wreck one just as easily.
I know that in metric poetry a foot off sticks out, I've tripped over my own plenty trying to learn it. But I'm not talking about metered poetry. I don't know how to label some of the poems I write, they sort of come from a perverted tanka force, but that really only matters to me. They sink or rise on their totality.
So are you saying that you don't think it will have any effect on the poem if most lines have 3 stresses and some have 2 or 4?

That is pretty much what I am saying. If you are writing free verse than the break is one of your most important elements and to subrogate it to a beat count is to produce inferior poetry. Others, it would seem, disagree. i wish I still had the writing from my accentual verse days but, unfortunately, it fell to the purge.

There's no way I would sacrifice breaks for this. I love my breaks, and take them often, Smile I was just thinking of trying to maintain the integrity of the poem while swapping out a word or two in spots to change the stress patterns. It's not all or nothing, yanno.

I doubt the exercise would cause you undue pain or in any way alter the course of English literature for the worse, I was brushing with broad strokes. Wink
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#43
(03-25-2014, 10:22 AM)milo Wrote:  
(03-25-2014, 10:17 AM)ellajam Wrote:  
(03-25-2014, 10:04 AM)milo Wrote:  That is pretty much what I am saying. If you are writing free verse than the break is one of your most important elements and to subrogate it to a beat count is to produce inferior poetry. Others, it would seem, disagree. i wish I still had the writing from my accentual verse days but, unfortunately, it fell to the purge.

There's no way I would sacrifice breaks for this. I love my breaks, and take them often, Smile I was just thinking of trying to maintain the integrity of the poem while swapping out a word or two in spots to change the stress patterns. It's not all or nothing, yanno.

I doubt the exercise would cause you undue pain or in any way alter the course of English literature for the worse, I was brushing with broad strokes. Wink

Hysterical
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#44
In actual fact, most of the poetry I grew up reading -- outside of the British tradition -- was accentual. It adhered very strongly to the number of beats per line and that's how I learned to write. Despite studying poetry, I didn't feel any need to try out writing in iambic pentameter or any other strict meter until I was well into my 20s because what I was writing worked just fine. Now, I'm not saying that it was better, because I've definitely improved as a writer over the years, but it wasn't poor because it was accentual. Many fine poems, especially folk poems, have worked pretty damn well with their only measure being those drum beats. It most certainly is NOT just re-organising the line breaks.
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#45
(03-26-2014, 04:29 AM)Leanne Wrote:  In actual fact, most of the poetry I grew up reading -- outside of the British tradition -- was accentual. It adhered very strongly to the number of beats per line and that's how I learned to write. Despite studying poetry, I didn't feel any need to try out writing in iambic pentameter or any other strict meter until I was well into my 20s because what I was writing worked just fine. Now, I'm not saying that it was better, because I've definitely improved as a writer over the years, but it wasn't poor because it was accentual. Many fine poems, especially folk poems, have worked pretty damn well with their only measure being those drum beats. It most certainly is NOT just re-organising the line breaks.

only slightly behind schedule on the disagreement . . now, i don't suppose you brought any examples with you for us to play with? (no, Twinkle, twinkle, little star will not do). i should point out we need examples of good /non-rhyming/ accentual verse to test.

*Iambic Pentameter is, of course accentual verse as well just employing an additional effect.
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#46
Poems such as The Son of a Fool by C.J. Dennis -- though an anal soul might call them "metric variants", in truth he's simply writing to the beat.
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#47
(03-26-2014, 06:30 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Poems such as The Son of a Fool by C.J. Dennis -- though an anal soul might call them "metric variants", in truth he's simply writing to the beat.

we need an example of /non-rhyming/ accentual poetry to test whether sticking to the beats improves the poem. Were we to change the breaks in rhyming poetry, a reader would just read through to the rhyme.
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#48
These are written to be spoken, plain and simple. While IP and other regular meters do make for a wonderfully neat skeleton, they are not the be-all and end-all of poetry. Unfortunately, meter has ruined me and I can't write properly without it anymore Sad

(03-26-2014, 06:31 AM)milo Wrote:  
(03-26-2014, 06:30 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Poems such as The Son of a Fool by C.J. Dennis -- though an anal soul might call them "metric variants", in truth he's simply writing to the beat.
we need an example of /non-rhyming/ accentual poetry to test whether sticking to the beats improves the poem. Were we to change the breaks in rhyming poetry, a reader would just read through to the rhyme.
Non-rhyming accentual poetry is just free verse.*
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#49
(03-26-2014, 06:32 AM)Leanne Wrote:  These are written to be spoken, plain and simple. While IP and other regular meters do make for a wonderfully neat skeleton, they are not the be-all and end-all of poetry. Unfortunately, meter has ruined me and I can't write properly without it anymore Sad

The question isn't accentual vs metered but accentual vs free-verse. The question being - does arranging the lines due to where the beats fall improve the poem. Changing the line breaks in accentual non-rhyming verse makes it into free verse.

It would be interesting to take a poem written in accentual verse, rearrange the line breaks (now transmuting it into free verse) and seeing if the poem was in any noticeable way worse - specifically when read aloud.
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#50
*There are traditional verse forms that require only a certain number of stresses per line as opposed to metric feet; however, all of these verse forms also have additional requirements such as alliteration, assonance, combinations of differing numbers of syllables per word, slant rhymes, etc. The idea that there is such a thing as "accentual verse" where the only requirement is the number of stresses per line is somewhat ludicrous.
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#51
(03-26-2014, 06:32 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Non-rhyming accentual poetry is just free verse.*

I suggest you go back to the poem that started the discussion:

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/showthread.php?tid=13697

the suggestion was to write this as accentual verse. you may have joined too late to truly appreciate it . . .

(03-26-2014, 06:37 AM)Leanne Wrote:  *There are traditional verse forms that require only a certain number of stresses per line as opposed to metric feet; however, all of these verse forms also have additional requirements such as alliteration, assonance, combinations of differing numbers of syllables per word, slant rhymes, etc. The idea that there is such a thing as "accentual verse" where the only requirement is the number of stresses per line is somewhat ludicrous.

I believe this is pretty much what I have been saying all along. Of course, I pretty much stood on rhyme or alliteration. It may be impossible to write in English at all without even accidentally employing some of these. The final qualification is that it needs to be a /regular/ application of specific sonic devices with a consistency to support the beats. One of them could simply be accentual (metric verse)
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#52
Pardon me, I'll just run along now and make sure that next time I have a completely contrary position.
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#53
(03-26-2014, 06:40 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Pardon me, I'll just run along now and make sure that next time I have a completely contrary position.

shouldn't be too hard, I draw contrary . . .Hysterical
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#54
name that verse form

If it weren't for the stresses
we'd make no more dresses,
and ugly bare legs not hide,
so go to the stream,
there you can scream,
and burbling thoughts may bide.
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?

The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
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#55
(03-26-2014, 08:19 AM)Erthona Wrote:  name that verse form

If it weren't for the stresses
we'd make no more dresses,
and ugly bare legs not hide,
so go to the stream,
there you can scream,
and burbling thoughts may bide.

"And ugly bare legs not hide"

Uh - is awful one of the choices?
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#56
yes, yes it is. if you mean the line and not the form.
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?

The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
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