the place of poetry among discourses
#21
(11-18-2013, 04:49 AM)Leanne Wrote:  How do you tune it out? It's not poetry, it's a philosophical argument and I think it's fair to say that I'm entitled to make judgments as to the philosophies I follow and those I dismiss. In ideas about poetry, nobody has for me surpassed Boccaccio, though Shelley comes close. Although I wouldn't take instructions from him about crossing the street, I tend to remain quite true to Barthes as well. And Kierkegaard. With a little bit of Heideggerian pomposity thrown in. How? They're all a little bit different, but then so am I on any two given occasions.

You clearly haven't learned the most fundamental of truths, though. Poetry is like religion: if you don't want people calling you a wanker and occasionally threatening violence against you, don't bring it up in conversation. And whatever you do, don't expect people to act like uppity scholars at a moderation meeting -- this is the Pig Pen. The clue is in the name.

Part of this is because poets don't /need/ philosophers as philosophers need poets. They especially don't need philosophers explaining to them what poetry is. Your list includes almost exclusively craftsmen.

It is amusing to discuss philosophy on the philosophy boards and here I think you point to the big difference:

people who discuss philosophy choose their heroes and launch them against others like groups of teenage girls might discuss whether they prefer Edward or Jacob or whether they prefer 'N Sync to the Backstreet Boys - it is all mindless hero worship and they are afraid to tear them down.

For poetry we seem to acknowledge certain masters of the craft or pieces we like and then continuously challenge everything else. Of course part of this is because poets are craftsman - Kant, while terribly brilliant was also a terrible bore - so while we acknowledge that While Spencer may have said some things brilliantly, most of what he said was also terribly stupid.
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#22
You mean "kill all the Irish so I can have a bit more land to hunt foxes on" isn't the most brilliant concept on the planet? Big Grin

And I'm sorry, but even though he was terribly enlightened and all that, the best thing Kant ever did was contribute to the song...

♪♫ Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable ♫♪

Brendan, my father is one of the most brilliant philosophers I've encountered in all my years of study. He left school at 15, joined the Navy, married my mum, worked in abbatoirs and service stations... it doesn't take a formal education to "get" stuff, but I can guarantee that while digging for those little nuggets of awesomeness you'd have to sit through a lot of tangents, swear words and reflections on the dickheadedness of the bloke at the next table wearing a vest and sandshoes.

The most pretentious thing someone can do is dismiss an alternate viewpoint because they don't like the package it comes in.
It could be worse
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#23
Hey, I left school at fifteen. I didn't join the navy, but instead traveled Canada looking for love. Navy seems like a much better call.

I remember, while traveling, there was a book given to me, 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". In it, the authour pointed out that despite the hippies protestations that industry was hideous, a scar on the earth, he felt otherwise. He saw industry as art, an art of precise mathematical form being applied by craftsmen of perfection to a practical purpose. I would never have agreed with that position until I saw it articulated in that exact way. Ever since the whole world holds a different view for me.

If however, he had have phrased it as, 'the hippies are losers full of shit and themselves (redundant); industry is beautiful' I would most certainly not have had such an enlightening change in perspective. Poetry is an exercise in developing the package it comes in.

I'm sorry for being so aggressive, I just didn't like the way the conversation was turning from legitimate challenges of thought to verbal 'I will mess you up' attitudes.

Oh, and Milo, my Marx, Proudhon, and Stirner are way sexier than any Fukiyamas or Spinozas
If I could say only one thing before I die, it'd probably be,
"Please don't kill me"
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#24
everything is discussed in pubs but not poetry (unless it's a wine bar okay ya) while you may start a discussion on anything you want in any place you wish brendon, were you to do it (start a poetry discourse) in my local which is an irish drinking man's pub, you'd be ignored or told to fuck off. it's not a slur on anyone, it just my pov about poetic discourse in a specific place. i lived my life in bars, both in the uk and in dublin. i've drank red lemonade the morning after but i've never heard or been part of any poetic discourse. i've talked of joyce but not about poetry, i've discoursed about wild but not in a poetic way. it's just not done. and if it is, it's probably in one of those uppity bars or a student bar. fucking poetry. get me a pint o porter and stfu. there is no, i will mess you up attitude, just pov's
for me these poetic discourses that are posted feel more like hot air than real discourse.

i was asked

Quote:Billy, that's fine and well, but why do you appreciate a given poem? That's kind of the point of this thread, however useless and long-winded my inquiry might seem to you. Saying "whether or not you appreciate it" is pretty vacuous at the end of the day.

that is not a discussion about poetic discourse. that a question about me and why i like a poem. to call me vacuous is at best stupid as the person who posted it doesn't actually know me. but fine i won't attack him with derogatory terms.
the point of this thread (look at the title of it)

despite his, but why do you appreciate a given poem? That's kind of the point of this thread,

is;
the place of poetry among discourses

my life was spent for the best part in pubs, and poetry had no part in discourse.
poetry only has a place in discourses when poetry is actually being discussed. here in this thread. so i know it has a place on forums, i also know it's discussed at "poetry slams" something that wouldn't be allowed in my local unless you like flying pint pots (empty ones of course).

and even this thread, back to this thread. mainly it's a troll. a question is asked and then all the knowledge comes out Hysterical poetry isn't that deep. to say i like kipling's if or dislike shelly's ozymandias is enough. i like it now fuck off. you (not you brendan Smile ) can't force me to tell you why i like or dislike anything, i don't owe you or this thread that privilege. you knowing the whys of my likes does not have to be a part of poetry discourse. talking of poetry is enough.
here's a question, why do you start a thread with such a blown up and pretentious read when simple
what roll does poetry play among discourse?
followed by a short paragraph would suffice. what's the point. don't give me quotes. tell me what you think. my dog can pose a question through copy and paste.

what do you think of poetry in discourse.
what do you mean when you say "among discourses"?
where do you discuss poetry.
why do you discuss it in such places

these are simple questions.

4 lines, but you probably won't answer them without some quote from such a person.
heres' my answer

it only works where poets or would be poets are involved.
i haven't a clue
more often than not in the forum, on odd occasions at the dinner table
no one's interested outside the house or the forum

an old poem i wrote, doesn't have merit but sort of describes how threads like this sometimes make me feel

Don't Speak to Me in Tongues.

I don’t want to be
(an)achronistic fossil
suspended in scholastic resin
some academia nut
rutted in the brittle-drone
syndrome of sin-tax and new facts

I don’t require a requiem
of mortarboards flung skyward
cold clichés of camaraderie
or honours bound
that drum out
masonic-like
in words that hiss but make no sound

I don’t yearn for tête-à-tête
with educational grand prix
whose coffee cups are stroked
around the crusted rim
with anecdotal tales
conversely told with vim

I want to see in blacks and whites and grey
what an edifice can say
to me in terms of lay and lie
I want to feel and hear it
fly below my head
I want to know
what’s just been
fucking said
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#25
Your opening post, jdeirmend, reminds me of a quote from Raymond Chandler. I mostly dislike Chandler as a teller of messy, nasty stories, but this is a quote, composed in his notebooks, which I often return to:

"There are two kinds of truth: the truth that lights the way and the truth that warms the heart. The first of these is science, and the second is art. Neither is independent of the other or more important than the other. Without art science would be as useless as a pair of high forceps in the hands of a plumber. Without science art would become a crude mess of folklore and emotional quackery. The truth of art keeps science from becoming inhuman, and the truth of science keeps art from becoming ridiculous."

Poetry, I think, should first be well-written and considered. If it is a tool for understanding or experiencing your spirit, as distinct from mythology and psychology, it is one which should be used well, like any tool. Randomly chucking a hammer at some rubble doesn't make a house, and noting your first thoughts in any form or order doesn't make a poem. That's why I've come to dislike writers who don't edit, and those with silly ideas about the greatest self-expression being spontaneous. Horseshit. Nothing produced by man is great unless it is considered. Whether free verse or sonnet, if a poem is to connect with humans other than yourself, to convey and explore the spirit, it must be crafted with care.
"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges." - Gene Wolfe
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#26
(11-17-2013, 09:39 PM)jdeirmend Wrote:  All,

Can we have a discussion without people being insulting, or plainly disclosing their disapproval, inattentiveness, etc., without any hint of appreciation?

If you feel like you're wasting your time responding to the thread and the initial post, which I've already admitted is just motivated by a weird itch I need to scratch, you don't need to participate.

Otherwise, I think it may be time for me to just get away from this "place" for good.

Thanks,
James
you post this after calling what i post vacuous?

Quote:Billy, that's fine and well, but why do you appreciate a given poem? That's kind of the point of this thread, however useless and long-winded my inquiry might seem to you. Saying "whether or not you appreciate it" is pretty vacuous at the end of the day.

you start a post, and people discuss it.
i disapprove of how you start a thread. (a poetry thread no less) this is actually valid as it pertains to the main string of your question?
grow a pair of balls, it's a discussion. you're not being attacked, at worst some of your words are and the style you pose a poetic question maybe but you the person are not. stop trolling. if you don't like the answers you see don't respond, you are not beholden to respond the same as we're not beholden to respond to you (your words)
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#27
(11-18-2013, 05:43 AM)SirBrendan Wrote:  Hey, I left school at fifteen. I didn't join the navy, but instead traveled Canada looking for love.

ahhh . . .'nuff said
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#28
(11-18-2013, 09:54 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  Your opening post, jdeirmend, reminds me of a quote from Raymond Chandler. I mostly dislike Chandler as a teller of messy, nasty stories, but this is a quote, composed in his notebooks, which I often return to:

"There are two kinds of truth: the truth that lights the way and the truth that warms the heart. The first of these is science, and the second is art. Neither is independent of the other or more important than the other. Without art science would be as useless as a pair of high forceps in the hands of a plumber. Without science art would become a crude mess of folklore and emotional quackery. The truth of art keeps science from becoming inhuman, and the truth of science keeps art from becoming ridiculous."

Poetry, I think, should first be well-written and considered. If it is a tool for understanding or experiencing your spirit, as distinct from mythology and psychology, it is one which should be used well, like any tool. Randomly chucking a hammer at some rubble doesn't make a house, and noting your first thoughts in any form or order doesn't make a poem. That's why I've come to dislike writers who don't edit, and those with silly ideas about the greatest self-expression being spontaneous. Horseshit. Nothing produced my man is great unless it is considered. Whether free verse or sonnet, if a poem is to connect with humans other than yourself, to convey and explore the spirit, it must be crafted with care.


    A sober isle amidst a senseless sea.

almost terse
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#29
(11-18-2013, 09:54 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  Poetry, I think, should first be well-written and considered. If it is a tool for understanding or experiencing your spirit, as distinct from mythology and psychology, it is one which should be used well, like any tool. Randomly chucking a hammer at some rubble doesn't make a house, and noting your first thoughts in any form or order doesn't make a poem. That's why I've come to dislike writers who don't edit, and those with silly ideas about the greatest self-expression being spontaneous. Horseshit. Nothing produced by man is great unless it is considered. Whether free verse or sonnet, if a poem is to connect with humans other than yourself, to convey and explore the spirit, it must be crafted with care.
This is why we've missed you, Jack. Well said indeed (especially the "horseshit" bit).
It could be worse
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#30
(11-18-2013, 11:50 AM)Leanne Wrote:  
(11-18-2013, 09:54 AM)Heslopian Wrote:  Poetry, I think, should first be well-written and considered. If it is a tool for understanding or experiencing your spirit, as distinct from mythology and psychology, it is one which should be used well, like any tool. Randomly chucking a hammer at some rubble doesn't make a house, and noting your first thoughts in any form or order doesn't make a poem. That's why I've come to dislike writers who don't edit, and those with silly ideas about the greatest self-expression being spontaneous. Horseshit. Nothing produced by man is great unless it is considered. Whether free verse or sonnet, if a poem is to connect with humans other than yourself, to convey and explore the spirit, it must be crafted with care.

This is why we've missed you, Jack. Well said indeed (especially the "horseshit" bit).

It's tough to find a good discussion where horseshit doesn't have a place.
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#31
(11-18-2013, 11:05 AM)milo Wrote:  
(11-18-2013, 05:43 AM)SirBrendan Wrote:  Hey, I left school at fifteen. I didn't join the navy, but instead traveled Canada looking for love.

ahhh . . .'nuff said

Well that just doesn't seem very nice at all

Btw Billy, that was a great poem
If I could say only one thing before I die, it'd probably be,
"Please don't kill me"
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#32
(11-18-2013, 12:29 PM)SirBrendan Wrote:  
(11-18-2013, 11:05 AM)milo Wrote:  
(11-18-2013, 05:43 AM)SirBrendan Wrote:  Hey, I left school at fifteen. I didn't join the navy, but instead traveled Canada looking for love.

ahhh . . .'nuff said

Well that just doesn't seem very nice at all

Btw Billy, that was a great poem

I spent some time in Montreal. Didn't take me long to find love . . .
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#33
Billy, I totally misunderstood what you were saying. I misinterpreted it as, 'if you're from where I'm from, you'd get laughed at like a twat'. Instead it was, "I don't discourse poetry, and don't have much use for the discourse, because it's just not part of my life outside of a personal pleasure'. I read it as a challenge instead of a statement--sorry dude.

Milo, I didn't like Montreal all that much, but I found love in every part of Canada (I've been to all but two provinces. Also found a lot of mean people who got off on hurting people and being superior.
If I could say only one thing before I die, it'd probably be,
"Please don't kill me"
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#34
(11-18-2013, 12:37 PM)SirBrendan Wrote:  Billy, I totally misunderstood what you were saying. I misinterpreted it as, 'if you're from where I'm from, you'd get laughed at like a twat'. Instead it was, "I don't discourse poetry, and don't have much use for the discourse, because it's just not part of my life outside of a personal pleasure'. I read it as a challenge instead of a statement--sorry dude.

Milo, I didn't like Montreal all that much, but I found love in every part of Canada (I've been to all but two provinces. Also found a lot of mean people who got off on hurting people and being superior.

You will find that anywhere. I haven't actually spent much time in Canada. The love in Montreal was a joke. It has a reputation.
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