luther seahand wrote

Quote:As a master poet of 35 years, I post my musings to delight my readers and have no concerns whatever about what may be said of my skills and creativity. With all due respect to the moderator of this forum, if there is ever to be a revival of the spirit of the bard in today's world of mediocrity it will come by encouragement, not by senseless academic criticism. Wherever beauty is found in expressions from the heart, it must be praised.

after his comment of :

Quote:Well done. May that love of your life engrave this beautiful rhyming expression of joy on the side of her heart.

was moderated.
i'm not having a dig at the person though i do think his comment is more an ego boost than a help.
my question is this. if you (the members in general) want to do as the master poet above wants to do, (if indeed any of you want to) why join and workshop like this. i've been away for a long time due to my internet provider migrating (it probably hates me) and come back to read stuff like this.

i can't for the life of me work out why anyone who doesn't want honest feedback is here in this house eating our fucking food and feasting at this table, if anyone feels the way of luther; begone i say, i shall not ban the person unless they break the rules but neither shall i read such grandiose self raise and without crying bullshit. this is me posting as a member. it would probably be best if i posted in the sewer with this but i think it should be an open discussion about what we/us/you want from the site.

what you'll get is honest feedback, nothing more, nothing less. so please all you master poets, speak now or forever hold you piece.

Well said. I haven't met many master poets - or mistress poets, for that matter - I'm so excited about this! #masterpoet

(07-15-2014, 03:15 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  Well said. I haven't met many master poets - or mistress poets, for that matter - I'm so excited about this! #masterpoet

it would be nice to get some pointers from someone whose been around since, at the very least, the romantics . . .

I think in one sense he's right, if you see something you find beautiful, by all means you should praise it. On the other hand, if you see something you dislike, you should also let the writer know, even if the writer disagrees with you.

The trick is for both the praise and the critique to be specific and clear enough to give the writer another perspective he/she might not have already considered.

It's still hard for me to offer insightful, helpful comments even after being a member here for a while though, so I do see where a lot of the new people are coming from.

(07-15-2014, 03:24 PM)trueenigma Wrote:  

(07-15-2014, 03:15 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  Well said. I haven't met many master poets - or mistress poets, for that matter - I'm so excited about this! #masterpoet

it would be nice to get some pointers from someone whose been around since, at the very least, the romantics . . .

Just think about it! He's pre-PoMo! And post PoMo too. A big job you know - I believe Ginsberg was filmed for years, moment by moment, but still did nothing much. I wonder if it's the Andy Warhol 'Life-as-art' art?

(07-15-2014, 03:15 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  Well said. I haven't met many master poets - or mistress poets, for that matter - I'm so excited about this! #masterpoet

Rubbish, Mercedes. The sign on your boudoir says "Mistress", and from the look of all that torture equipment, it must be for poetry.

Of course it takes a while to get used to offering balanced, insightful critiques and we don't expect anyone to be an expert right away (or even quite a way down the track) -- but to reject the idea out of hand, when it's very clear that's what the website is about, is just plain strange. Personally I die a little inside every time someone writes "great job!" or "wow, this is amazing!"

(07-15-2014, 03:29 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  

(07-15-2014, 03:24 PM)trueenigma Wrote:  

(07-15-2014, 03:15 PM)just mercedes Wrote:  Well said. I haven't met many master poets - or mistress poets, for that matter - I'm so excited about this! #masterpoet

it would be nice to get some pointers from someone whose been around since, at the very least, the romantics . . .

Just think about it! He's pre-PoMo! And post PoMo too. A big job you know - I believe Ginsberg was filmed for years, moment by moment, but still did nothing much. I wonder if it's the Andy Warhol 'Life-as-art' art?

That seems to be the running argument, but life is just not that interesting if you only care to exist, and record it, so that others can bask in the lack of anything notable.

Maybe if we view it and the letters side by side we can pretend that the two are the same thing and therefore believe that our ability to regularly update our facebook statuses is a grand achievement?

Of course it takes a while to get used to offering balanced, insightful critiques and we don't expect anyone to be an expert right away (or even quite a way down the track) -- but to reject the idea out of hand, when it's very clear that's what the website is about, is just plain strange. Personally I die a little inside every time someone writes "great job!" or "wow, this is amazing!"
[/quote]

I can't always offer a balanced and/or insightful critique either, and I've been guilty of saying 'great job'. I'm cutting him some slack. Some animals think snarls are smiles, and vice versa.

i'm all good with people who don't yet know how to use the site or give insightful feedback, we all or most of us had to start at the very same point and saying something is good/great or wonderful is also okay, the latter though, only working if it's said sparsely and intermixed with some in depth poetry. but that isn't what the questions about.

why if you don't want to workshop are we here. why if you don't want to give or take feedback that's honest are we here. we do allow people to join and post as they want but if they post poetry we expect some decent input from you in return.

i always harp on about ray (you'll mainly see him in the for fun section or winding me up) he doesn't tent to give much feedback in the main poetry forums but he contributes to the site as much or more than many of us here. an aside to his posting helps people to see what decent poetry could look like. in truth he's a one off but that's his bag and it works for him and the site. we have less crafted poets who give only small amounts of honest feedback and these too are just as valuable.

Quote:As a master poet of 35 years, I post my musings to delight my readers and have no concerns whatever about what may be said of my skills and creativity.

almost every part of this statement instills in me a great sadness. i imagine newbs reading it and see them emulating it, not only here but on other workshopping sites. and as an aside, the person obviously has concerns, enough to call himself a master poet. i'm his reader and yet delight was not the thing that came to mind with anything he said or posted. aren't we better than that. it's my first day back proper and somehow i feel so deflated on reading the above comment. i'd much sooner have ray try and tear me a new bottom

I guess that's your cue, Ray...

---

Incidentally, even though his main hangouts are the Miscellaneous and For Fun forums, Ray has been responsible for some of the greatest insights I've been given into my and other people's poetry. Each contributes in his/her way -- but just sitting back and blowing smoke up people's arses is definitely not the way to break out of mediocrity. It's how we got there in the first place.

(07-15-2014, 01:52 PM)billy Wrote:  luther seahand wrote

Quote:As a master poet of 35 years, I post my musings to delight my readers and have no concerns whatever about what may be said of my skills and creativity. With all due respect to the moderator of this forum, if there is ever to be a revival of the spirit of the bard in today's world of mediocrity it will come by encouragement, not by senseless academic criticism. Wherever beauty is found in expressions from the heart, it must be praised.

after his comment of :

Quote:Well done. May that love of your life engrave this beautiful rhyming expression of joy on the side of her heart.

was moderated.
i'm not having a dig at the person though i do think his comment is more an ego boost than a help.
my question is this. if you (the members in general) want to do as the master poet above wants to do, (if indeed any of you want to) why join and workshop like this. i've been away for a long time due to my internet provider migrating (it probably hates me) and come back to read stuff like this.

i can't for the life of me work out why anyone who doesn't want honest feedback is here in this house eating our fucking food and feasting at this table, if anyone feels the way of luther; begone i say, i shall not ban the person unless they break the rules but neither shall i read such grandiose self raise and without crying bullshit. this is me posting as a member. it would probably be best if i posted in the sewer with this but i think it should be an open discussion about what we/us/you want from the site.

what you'll get is honest feedback, nothing more, nothing less. so please all you master poets, speak now or forever hold you piece.

As a master poet of 35 1/2 years and a bater for somewhat less, I can only suggest that Master Seahand takes himself in hand and concentrates more on one than the other...perhaps he will get a more awesome satisfaction.....wow, blows me away!
Best,
tectak

You know some poems are excellent. They move you. All you feel is a sense of awe and maybe even jealousy that someone could nail it so perfectly, but no matter how long you've been writing it's rare to create something like that. Mostly you have one good idea or some nice phrasing covered up by crap. I think the further you go along in anything the more you see the flaws in your own work, or when they're pointed out to you you can't avoid them.

I don't think encouragement is bad, but it should be genuine. I think when we gloss over real problems in a poem we're not doing the writer any favors.

As far as this master poet thing, I say let people decide that when you're dead. I will always be in process hoping that this year is better than last year.

An editor friend finally encouraged me to submit work, which I haven't done much in decades. My reasoning is the payoff isn't publishing, the payoff is writing better. Since I always see improvement through uncovering flaws in what I previously thought was good, and because my execution improves I'm hesitant to send work in. That said, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest if and when it gets rejected. The point is the writing itself.

So, I get why someone may feel that younger writers need a diet of encouragement but that's like feeding your kid a diet of candy because its what they want. They need solid nutritious food. A diet of only candy ends badly. It isn't really loving or good parenting. If you only praise good writers they won't develop good habits and grow. Yes there could hypothetically be some genius out there that turns out pure gold--but I've never met them. Unapologetic critique can shave years off the process. Again, I'd rather see people grow who want to grow, and yes encouragement can be a part of that but it really is a small one. I guess where I react to these comments is the "senseless academic criticism". I don't see it as purely academic, and I don't see it as senseless.

Many of us have spent years writing. The time put in isn't necessarily special it matters how its been used. I have no issue with Luther expressing his opinion. I think it's a bit one sided though, and I can agree with billy in that there are many sites that give a steady diet of praise--I challenge anyone to show me how they've resurrected the bard. Mostly, I see shallow narcissistic writing from people that don't want to put in the work to be good.

We're far from perfect here. We make mistakes. We over-rotate occasionally, but it has been my joy to see some writers improve. That's why we do it.

My thoughts,

Todd

(07-15-2014, 07:49 PM)Todd Wrote:  You know some poems are excellent. They move you. All you feel is a sense of awe and maybe even jealousy that someone could nail it so perfectly, but no matter how long you've been writing it's rare to create something like that. Mostly you have one good idea or some nice phrasing covered up by crap. I think the further you go along in anything the more you see the flaws in your own work, or when their pointed out to you you can't avoid them.

I don't think encouragement is bad, but it should be genuine. I think when we gloss over real problems in a poem we're not doing the writer any favors.

As far as this master poet thing, I say let people decide that when you're dead. I will always be in process hoping that this year is better than last year.

An editor friend finally encouraged me to submit work, which I haven't done much in decades. My reasoning is the payoff isn't publishing, the payoff is writing better. Since I always see improvement through uncovering flaws in what I previously thought was good, and because my execution improves I'm hesitant to send work in. That said, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest if and when it gets rejected. The point is the writing itself.

So, I get why someone may feel that younger writers need a diet of encouragement but that's like feeding your kid a diet of candy because its what they want. They need solid food. A diet of only candy ends badly. It isn't really loving or good parenting. If you only praise good writers they won't develop good habits and grow. Yes there could hypothetically be some genius out there that turns out pure gold--but I've never met them. Unapologetic critique can shave years off the process. Again, I'd rather see people grow who want to grow, and yes encouragement can be a part of that but it really is a small one. I guess where I react to these comments is the "senseless academic criticism". I don't see it as purely academic, and I don't see it as senseless.

Many of us have spent years writing. The time put in isn't necessarily special it matter how its been used. I have no issue with Luther expressing his opinion. I think it's a bit one sided, and I can agree with billy in that there are many sites that give a steady diet of praise--I challenge anyone to show me how they've resurrected the bard. Mostly, a see shallow narcissistic writing from people that don't want to put in the work to be good.

So, much long every other generation. We're far from perfect here. We make mistakes. We over-rotate occasionally, but it has been my joy to see some writers improve. That's why we do it.

My thoughts,

Todd

...and they are good thoughts, well said Todd. I would echo your points and sentiments. I am not familiar with the member you and billy reference, but it is of little consequence to me as a participating member of this great community. It's very clear that this is a poetry workshop site. All you have to do is review the rules and mission statement and then observe the activity here before joining to get the drift. Those folks who feel that they are beyond improving their craft or editing their poems never remain on site for long anyway. However, there is always the chance of another convert.

I disagree with Luther Seahand, academic criticism is exactly why I am here, well, fun too. I have no money, time or inclination to enroll in a class, show up on their schedule and write during a specific period of time.

Having found this site, a free poetry class that I can attend at my convenience, with rotating teachers who acknowledge that they are also students, has nourished my meager talent in a way no other place I've found could. When members point to the gaping holes in my work it is to show me where I need to improve, and they have stuck with me through numerous attempts to make a poem work to the best of my own abilities.

I have never had requests for help ignored or refused. Instead, it seems members here have endless patience and take the time to repeatedly explain what I am sometimes too thick to understand the first time.

It's the internet. If a site is not your style, try another one. If someone's poetic career can be derailed by the readers on one website, my guess is they are not the next Shakespeare anyway. Luther Seahand need not worry.

S/he has a point, however badly expressed.

When we speak of criticism, implicitly, we speak of brick-bats and bouquets. Thus, we could say ''Tosh'' or ''Crap'', or ''Awesome'', but that would not assist the writer. S/he may be pleased or annoyed, but what is needed are reasons, reasons why we think whatever we think. Then the writer may pick something up, for that writing, or the one after the next. The critic, I suggest, also learns while explaining his or her thoughts, as it becomes necessary to ask oneself, what it is that attracts or repels, and I freely admit that reading other people's crits I find very enlightening. I have a feeling that Leanne has made this simple point 2,343 times previously, but I may be out a little.

Ella

''Having found this site, a free poetry class that I can attend at my convenience'' . It is quite common over here. At Yuletide, someone usually scribbles out ''A Merry Christmas to all our readers''. A nice touch, eh?

I post here because I like some of the people.

(07-16-2014, 09:58 AM)milo Wrote:  I post here because I like some of the people to suffer.

/fixed

I post here because I like that answer. And the others, all different.

I really enjoy the site, and I like the feedback I get from other members. It's priceless.

I actually like some of the poetry.