(09-16-2013, 07:40 AM)BigRed Wrote:  I would never steer someone away from learning the rules and fundamentals. That's just basic and should occur. My only contention is that I think it should not always be strictly followed thereafter.

In other words, I think the only way someone can artistically curtail conventional rules of poetry is by knowing them. If you're curtailing them out of not knowing them, then that's just incompetence.

Stick around, BigRed, you'll see that's exactly our philosophy. Learn the rules, then break them -- but ffs, learn them first. What's the point in being subversive if you do it so badly that people just think you're ignorant?

(09-16-2013, 06:50 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  

(09-16-2013, 05:31 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  

(09-16-2013, 05:26 AM)milo Wrote:  I disagree that poetry is an extension of ourselves. Being everything else you said was dependent on that premise it all just disappeared.

Duh, milo. Poems are just fancy diary entries. How could you not know that!?

A much less incorrect statement would be: "fanciful diary entry".

"Poetry is an extension of ourselves" reminds me of robotic hands.

"Rules" (as well as art) are subjective. One word: "Lawyers".

Your diary entries may be fanciful, but mine are just fancy.

what that finger's doing looks like art to me

(09-16-2013, 08:54 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  
"A painting is a physical object, it is not art.
Art is the effect the painting has on a person when
they see it. Art is subjective because it is a
product of perception and perception is subjective.

- William Sanders

I don't like to follow rules regarding art, but to me, personally, unless speaking in a vernacular, grammar should always be correct, especially if it is going to be submitted. <<that was a f'ing run-on sentence if I've ever seen one>>> No editor would read past the first error. As far as punctuation goes, once you've taken away that "I'm-just-writing-for-myself" factor, and we all have here, you have an audience to consider. Punctuation is much like a map to guide a reader. Sometimes you need a really detailed map, sometimes general directions will do. I had a creative writer teacher explain it to the class this way:

She wrote on the board "Woman without man is nothing" and asked everyone to punctuate it correctly. All the females wrote "Woman: without her, man is nothing." and all the males wrote "Woman, without her man, is nothing."

So yes, it matters, and you have to decide how much leeway you want to give the readers.

(09-19-2013, 10:43 PM)bena Wrote:  I don't like to follow rules regarding art, but to me, personally, unless speaking in a vernacular, grammar should always be correct, especially if it is going to be submitted. <<that was a f'ing run-on sentence if I've ever seen one>>> No editor would read past the first error. As far as punctuation goes, once you've taken away that "I'm-just-writing-for-myself" factor, and we all have here, you have an audience to consider. Punctuation is much like a map to guide a reader. Sometimes you need a really detailed map, sometimes general directions will do. I had a creative writer teacher explain it to the class this way:

She wrote on the board "Woman without man is nothing" and asked everyone to punctuate it correctly. All the females wrote "Woman: without her, man is nothing." and all the males wrote "Woman, without her man, is nothing."

So yes, it matters, and you have to decide how much you want leeway you want to give the readers.

Having just started editing, this is something I'm thinking about now. Your post (especially the last line) illustrates it clearly, thanks.

hah I fixed that double brain fart I had in it....can I hire you to edit all my posts so I don't look like an idiot?

That sort of ambiguity might be a problem in technical writing and some poems, but I firmly believe that in skilled hands, such ambiguity can be the winning quality of a piece. jmo

(09-16-2013, 05:31 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  

(09-16-2013, 05:26 AM)milo Wrote:  I disagree that poetry is an extension of ourselves. Being everything else you said was dependent on that premise it all just disappeared.

Duh, milo. Poems are just fancy diary entries. How could you not know that!?

Watch it trueE. Milo could make you evaporate with a single sentence!

(09-20-2013, 02:28 AM)ChristopherSea Wrote:  

(09-16-2013, 05:31 AM)trueenigma Wrote:  

(09-16-2013, 05:26 AM)milo Wrote:  I disagree that poetry is an extension of ourselves. Being everything else you said was dependent on that premise it all just disappeared.

Duh, milo. Poems are just fancy diary entries. How could you not know that!?

Watch it trueE. Milo could make you evaporate with a single sentence!

I'm obviously kidding. Poetry is not just about the author.

I am attempting to add punctuation to my poems which were written without it.

After weeding out unneeded words, all the ands and buts are gone, so now I end up with a wall of commas.

example:

Half glassed for winter,
half screened to catch summer's breeze,
your home sang your soul,
cradled it during your stay,
released it to soar in joy.

Not a pretty sight.

Maybe the solution is not to add punctuation, but to make sure the poem is clear straight through without it. It almost feels like a cheat, clearing up confusion with little marks instead of better lines.

I'm torn.

Mark said, "in skilled hands, such ambiguity can be the winning quality of a piece".

Certainly, see "Young Goodman Brown" by Nathaniel Hawthorne, for an excellent use of ambiguity. That is content ambiguity, and it is purposeful, and completely different from the confusion that arises from poor punctuation, no punctuation; syntactical or grammatical errors.

Dale

(10-17-2013, 03:24 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I am attempting to add punctuation to my poems which were written without it.

After weeding out unneeded words, all the ands and buts are gone, so now I end up with a wall of commas.

example:

Half glassed for winter
half screened to catch summer's breeze.
Your home sang your soul
cradled it during your stay
released it to soar in joy.

Not a pretty sight.

Maybe the solution is not to add punctuation, but to make sure the poem is clear straight through without it. It almost feels like a cheat, clearing up confusion with little marks instead of better lines.

I'm torn.

whats wrong wiv it

(10-17-2013, 03:40 PM)billy Wrote:  

(10-17-2013, 03:24 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I am attempting to add punctuation to my poems which were written without it.

After weeding out unneeded words, all the ands and buts are gone, so now I end up with a wall of commas.

example:

Half glassed for winter
half screened to catch summer's breeze.
Your home sang your soul
cradled it during your stay
released it to soar in joy.

Not a pretty sight.

Maybe the solution is not to add punctuation, but to make sure the poem is clear straight through without it. It almost feels like a cheat, clearing up confusion with little marks instead of better lines.

I'm torn.

whats wrong wiv it

I thought I couldn't put a period after breeze because the first two lines aren't a complete sentence.

(10-17-2013, 11:01 PM)ellajam Wrote:  

(10-17-2013, 03:40 PM)billy Wrote:  

(10-17-2013, 03:24 PM)ellajam Wrote:  I am attempting to add punctuation to my poems which were written without it.

After weeding out unneeded words, all the ands and buts are gone, so now I end up with a wall of commas.

example:

Half glassed for winter
half screened to catch summer's breeze.
Your home sang your soul
cradled it during your stay
released it to soar in joy.

Not a pretty sight.

Maybe the solution is not to add punctuation, but to make sure the poem is clear straight through without it. It almost feels like a cheat, clearing up confusion with little marks instead of better lines.

I'm torn.

whats wrong wiv it

I thought I couldn't put a period after breeze because the first two lines aren't a complete sentence.

They are. Write it out as a sentence, punctuate it, then break it back up:

Half glassed for winter, half screened to catch summer's breeze.
Your home sang your soul, cradled it during your stay, released it to soar in joy.

(10-18-2013, 06:26 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  

(10-17-2013, 11:01 PM)ellajam Wrote:  

(10-17-2013, 03:40 PM)billy Wrote:  whats wrong wiv it

I thought I couldn't put a period after breeze because the first two lines aren't a complete sentence.

They are. Write it out as a sentence, punctuate it, then break it back up:

Half glassed for winter, half screened to catch summer's breeze.
Your home sang your soul, cradled it during your stay, released it to soar in joy.

Thanks, I'm going to try to get this. I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point for me. English is my native language.

(10-18-2013, 08:13 PM)ellajam Wrote:  

(10-18-2013, 06:26 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:  
They are. Write it out as a sentence, punctuate it, then break it back up:

Half glassed for winter, half screened to catch summer's breeze.
Your home sang your soul, cradled it during your stay, released it to soar in joy.

Thanks, I'm going to try to get this. I'm not sure why this is such a sticking point for me. English is my native language.

Well, there's your problem right there. English, while an excellent
language in many other respects, is a rather poor native one.
My advise would be to change your native language to one
that's more appropriate for natives. Continuing down your current
path will only garner you more bemuddlement and forplexity.

"Well, there's your problem right there. English, while an excellent
language in many other respects, is a rather poor native one.
My advise would be to change your native language to one
that's more appropriate for natives. Continuing down your current
path will only garner you more bemuddlement and forplexity."

That's some funny stuff right there.Thank you

On the topic of puncutation. I take the idea that their sacred
Imean its pretty obvious we make those rules for a reason
and you're attempts to cheepen them made me sicker;

What's up with the dearth of parentheses. I see ellipses and hyphens all over, but parentheses seem to be avoided in most poems here. Is there something about them people feel is unsuited to poetry?

(11-19-2013, 03:22 PM)ellajam Wrote:  What's up with the dearth of parentheses. I see ellipses and hyphens all over, but parentheses seem to be avoided in most poems here. Is there something about them people feel is unsuited to poetry?

Parenthesis are avoided in poetry (though I have used them several times) there is a reason but I forget, the poet is to use a pair of em dashes. (Though sometimes I use parenthesis for a specific effect)

---

Actually, this reminds me of this girl from another board who used crazy nested parentheses and brackets in her regular posts - they made them all.most I.possible to parse. I will try to find one or two tomorrow, if I forget, remind me.

(11-19-2013, 03:25 PM)milo Wrote:  

(11-19-2013, 03:22 PM)ellajam Wrote:  What's up with the dearth of parentheses. I see ellipses and hyphens all over, but parentheses seem to be avoided in most poems here. Is there something about them people feel is unsuited to poetry?

Parenthesis are avoided in poetry (though I have used them several times) there is a reason but I forget, the poet is to use a pair of em dashes. (Though sometimes I use parenthesis for a specific effect)

---

Actually, this reminds me of this girl from another board who used crazy nested parentheses and brackets in her regular posts - they made them all.most I.possible to parse. I will try to find one or two tomorrow, if I forget, remind me.

Why would we make up a series of dashes when we've been given those lovely curvy things to separate a phrase.
({just to be clear} I am not [at this time] advocating excessive of (any) punctuation.)