Not really a discussion... A suggestion & personal observation.
#1
For those of you who like me cannot play chess, but have been inspired by the spark of creative output that the poetry chess game has engendered for Todd and Brandon there is a sort of non chess version I have found at this link. www.napowrimo.net It is a national poetry write month idea to spark creativity. The basic plan is that they will put up some prompts and thoughts - and then the rest is up to you. (I appreciate that effectively this is no different from coming on this site and reading any number of inspirational poems in various stages of development).
I have to confess that just recently I have felt repressed in my writing endeavours and have a reduced inclination to post because of the recent atmosphere of projected personal authority on what constitutes perfectionism. Please don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of this site and have spoken on quite a few occasions to praise the site and the Mods who (in my opinion) selflessly help everyone. It is more to do with the collective attitude that prevails. As Billy mentioned to me only recently, the site is really only possible because of the input of the members. Accordingly the site is then a bit like any social event or gathering in that it is liable to be flavoured with the strongest personality or most opinionated / authoritative voice. It is in the nature of man to fall into step and not be seen to be different (and whilst perhaps poets are not as inclined to do this as the rest of the population the undercurrent is still there), for me when I come on site today I do not feel the same sense of coming home to a safe place that I did when a couple of months ago. Idea . Today, I feel nervous again and unsure of myself. I'm reluctant to post because I (personally) don't feel able to cope with the level of condescension and poetic mocking that has crept onto every level of thread. (To be showcased and applauded elsewhere...and this is the root of my feelings).
I hesitated where to post this thread / thought. I'm not really looking for a discussion. (and certainly not an argument). It is just a feeling / thought expressed. Something that I currently feel. As is the case, after we have written a poem, what I felt at the time of writing might not necessarily be what another perceived upon reading. I appreciate that there will be many who will disagree with what I have expressed here. In part this is why I have posted the link. This is what I intend to do with myself to try and shake off these feeling. It could just be me and in due course someone will give me a timely slap and the re-set button will be activated, I will muchie up and stop being pathetic...meanwhile I'm off to play chess without a board or pieces!

No doubt I will not be away for very long.
As I used to say to the kids when it was past bedtime and I wasout of energy "Sorry this facility is currently out of action...normal service will be resumed tommorow" (Just as soon as I find the re-set button Confused)

Idea (Perhaps poetry is not meant to be safe and I have a odd view of what poetry offers to both the writer and the reader...perhaps that is a better discussion than this thread).
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#2
milo has a poem a day for the poetry month going on in the for fun forum.

basically aj, the idea is not to let the bastards grind you down. i know i can't post everywhere like i used to and i'm thinking many more are the same. if you see some smart arse being condescending, pm them or call it for what it is in the pig's arse. you may always call me out in the pig's arse should i condescend. i think this is a good post. it might help bring things to the fore. we'll always have forceful and less forceful types in a site that's growing by the day. it's at about this stage that cliques will probably start growing. we'll try our best to keep the site a level playing field as best we can.
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#3
Always happy to call anyone out on their authoritative ideas Big Grin

Really, aside from some very basic rules of thumb (cliches are boring and pointless, too many modifiers lead to lack of substance, write a poem not a diary entry etc) everything else is a matter of trend and will vary depending on where you learned to write and from whom. Any of these trends in the wrong hands can be tedious. Only by reading widely can we appreciate just how many different ways there are to say things.

But AJ, we all have our moments of despair. We all stamp our feet and swear we'll never write again. We all think billy's a rotten sod and want to shout it up a pig's arse. Anyone who says otherwise is a... wait, what were we talking about again?

I think this sort of discussion is just as valuable as any other. It doesn't hurt to be reminded that we're real people behind the screens.
It could be worse
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#4
Hey AJ,

It's a complex issue you raise. Sites like this swing back and forth. It all depends on the current makeup of its contributors. Poets like well anyone are a biased bunch on what constitutes good poetry. The louder voices will sometimes influence people new to critique. If those louder voices came to their views from a more blunt or harsh source that will sometimes be conveyed with the message, and unfortunately the tone can sometimes obscure what is often good advice.

When you joined the site, we had a rash of people who didn't believe that poetry could be critiqued. At that point, we were dealing with the pendulum swinging the other way. I guess I would encourage you to mostly just keep writing and posting. If you feel that the tone is authoritarian meaning that a person is trying to get off on being prickish and isn't really focused on helping you improve--take what you can use from them and ignore everything else. And...And here's the hard part...try not to let it effect you.

The reason the poetry chess thing works for me (oh, and the chess game is unimportant) is that I focus on getting the first thing I think about related to game (very loosely) written. I don't care if it makes me look bad. I'm not trying to impress anyone with what I write. Thus, I can be creative. That seems to be the trick.

Some people hate free verse and always critique it as if its a flaw. Some people have a bias against rhyme. We all have our pet peeves. It's still a good thing when everyone doesn't disagree. I like your idea of coming home, I really do but there is an equal danger on sites like this. Over time people can end up liking one another (thankfully we mods were chosen for our mutual contempt), this can result in putting a halo effect over our critiquing efforts. New blood can help this.

Also from a practical standpoint, what you might be seeing is that you also have people new to critique who see someone confident in their critiquing and begin to mirror that persons method, biases, and tone thinking ah this is how you do it. In some ways, it is how you do it. We all learn from example. True mastery though is when you can keep what you've learned and shed a lot of the add ons that come with it.

I've enjoyed having you here AJ. I've been where you are now. I return there sometimes. You raise some valid points, but I would encourage you to hang on... and remember that what Leanne says is true: Billy's a rotten sod.
The secret of poetry is cruelty.--Jon Anderson
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#5
Hi AJ,

I can only hope it was not me.
i am glad the pantheon of PP has spoken before me. ,-)

I also understand that condescending behaviour hurts.
i try to think: a person hurting me online (intentionally, I mean) would most probably not so easily hurt me in a face to face situation .
Let me give a very striking example about really lame behaviour online: lots of bs comments over at youtube.

The other point seems to be; insecurity comes it to judging our artistic value. This happens to me more or less every day. When is a critique n my stuff justified and really hepful, etc.

the only thoughts helping me to "survive" are:
1. Arseholes are known to exist. (I can see some people chuckling right now, nodding and hissiing; exactly serge, I am just reading one. I think I do qualify.)
2. I am pround and enjoy if other artists/writers accept me as one of their own. I tend to say I prefer thst experience over someone sayying nice things about my scribblings.
3. I simply writing.

cheers and have a fine day


serge
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#6
Hi and thanks to everyone who has left a comment of encouragement.

You are all right in that I am having a (yet another) moment of self doubt and insecurity (to which I am prone...long and boring story of childhood woe blah, blah, blah...I'll join the queue). This site has be wonderful for me in terms of a mix of kindness and the odd slap to get a grip. I was as much having a strop on behalf of others (which actually is none of my business...so got it wrong again). Apologies to all.
I am thrilled that yet again PP triumph; in that as I am writing about an idea for creativity I have seen somewhere else, a post goes up (must have been as I wrote) to offer the exact same facility / creative idea in house...well done & cheers Milo, I will try my hand at (this version of chess poetry minus the pieces) in the fun section. Big Grin Rattle now thrown, hopefully it will be ages before I am able to locate it and throw it again.

Todd you are right about the complexities of juggling the dynamics of a forum / site like this and I take my hat off to you all for the way in which you navigate these troubled waters. Also you don't get rid of me that easily, I'm not going anywhere. Big Grin

@ Serge if you are an arsehole...which I don't think...then you are the nicest one I've ever known. big hug (Also what you said in point 2 made a lot of sense and added a better perspective to my thoughts - thanks).

Normal service will commence shortly (not sure if that’s a good thing Smile )
AJ.
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#7
Hey serge, nice arsehole Hysterical

See, we don't need to worry about AJ, she's tougher than all of you crusty old bastards!

PS. I quite like crusty old bastards. It's a failing of mine.
It could be worse
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#8
crusty scares me shitless. Maybe a simpsons thing.



your's sincerely nicest ever Arschloch :-)

at our cidermaid:
I want me some barrel of devonshire applejuice.

Or at least more of your sweettalking. ,-)
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#9
(04-03-2013, 02:17 AM)cidermaid Wrote:  Hi and thanks to everyone who has left a comment of encouragement.

You are all right in that I am having a (yet another) moment of self doubt and insecurity (to which I am prone...long and boring story of childhood woe blah, blah, blah...I'll join the queue). This site has be wonderful for me in terms of a mix of kindness and the odd slap to get a grip. I was as much having a strop on behalf of others (which actually is none of my business...so got it wrong again). Apologies to all.
I am thrilled that yet again PP triumph; in that as I am writing about an idea for creativity I have seen somewhere else, a post goes up (must have been as I wrote) to offer the exact same facility / creative idea in house...well done & cheers Milo, I will try my hand at (this version of chess poetry minus the pieces) in the fun section. Big Grin Rattle now thrown, hopefully it will be ages before I am able to locate it and throw it again.

Todd you are right about the complexities of juggling the dynamics of a forum / site like this and I take my hat off to you all for the way in which you navigate these troubled waters. Also you don't get rid of me that easily, I'm not going anywhere. Big Grin

@ Serge if you are an arsehole...which I don't think...then you are the nicest one I've ever known. big hug (Also what you said in point 2 made a lot of sense and added a better perspective to my thoughts - thanks).

Normal service will commence shortly (not sure if that’s a good thing Smile )
AJ.

It is good to see you are staying.

milo

(now where am I to point out that billy is a sod and all?)
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#10
(04-03-2013, 07:01 AM)milo Wrote:  (now where am I to point out that billy is a sod and all?)
practically anywhere will do Big Grin

For anyone who doesn't know about the darker side of the Pig Pen, you'll want to read about joining The Sewer/ Pig's Arse.
It could be worse
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#11
(04-03-2013, 04:36 AM)Leanne Wrote:  Hey serge, nice arsehole Hysterical

See, we don't need to worry about AJ, she's tougher than all of you crusty old bastards!

PS. I quite like crusty old bastards. It's a failing of mine.
i'm liked, i'm liked i tell you DodgyDodgy
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#12
Oh billy, will you never learn? It's spelled licked.
It could be worse
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#13
(04-03-2013, 07:10 AM)Leanne Wrote:  
(04-03-2013, 07:01 AM)milo Wrote:  (now where am I to point out that billy is a sod and all?)
practically anywhere will do Big Grin

For anyone who doesn't know about the darker side of the Pig Pen, you'll want to read about joining The Sewer/ Pig's Arse.
we got rid of a lot of the older stuff but i'm sure there's some good stuff in there.
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#14
Oh yeah! Party's gettin messy.

delight sublime!

It is too inconspicuous to be not conspicuous that the ghost of bukowski has his dirty ways with us:

(my latestpoempearl as of yet unpolished:

fucked up enough to get fucked up

(hank being buk being chinaski, the very gangster who committed such breathtakingly beautifully poetic crimes as exemplum gratum:


"love is a dog from hell"

"she's young, she said,
but look at me,
I have pretty ankles, ..............."

(quoting from the same poem closer to the abyss:

"listen, I've lived long enough to become a 
good woman,
why do you need a bad woman?
you need to be tortured, don't you? "

Bukowski the cross dressed cunt ( sneers gurkiboy and barksSmile)

well, listen:
you might think me odd when I say
to a princess:

"know what,
ass, you can blow me "

cuz ya think
that is acrobatically unlikely, but then again ya dunno Bukowski:

"not there, she said,
o, hahaha, not there, that's not
the right place!

you women have more holes than
swiss cheese... "

(no ad feminam implied )


etc...
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