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I am marginally obsessive, if that is possible, about punctuation. Many of us habitually read our own work out loud in order to get the required or intended emotion into the written word. The technique is valuable...but you then must try to transmit the result to your reader. To do this, punctuate.
Do not misinterpret what I am trying, badly, to say. Not every aspiring poet is interested in passing on such information as punctuation can provide. They will argue for preferring instead to let the readers make up their own minds where the pauses and nuances of speech should be. Fine. This is not for them.
The full stop, colon, semicolon and comma are the basic dictators (and I mean to use that word) of control in the written word. The use of these squiggly marks is universally accepted. They are there to be used.
Of the four, the semicolon is the the most hated, misused, maligned and misunderstood.
Each of the four introduces a pause. I only use punctuation in the way that I was taught many years ago, by an excellent tutor. I am aware that language changes but its most rudimentary, there is a necessity to breathe... don't forget, I am still talking about the advantages of reading your work out loud.
The count 1 comma, count 2 semicolon, count 4(some argue 3) colon and "pause to suit the dramatic effect" (some argue 4)full stop, is my yardstick. A count is a foot or half-foot depending upon the rhythm of the piece. Now, that is a simplification.
The semicolon is different from the rest. Its use is, admittedly, limited but it HAS a use.
When two sentences, and this is of the essence, need to be conjoined without the use of a repeated or redundant conjunction, use the semicolon.
Many shy away from the semicolon because it is also the most feared of all punctuation marks.
I love it; perhaps I love it to excess.
The most important rule is also the simplest. Semicolons should ONLY be used to join TWO complete SENTENCES when a conjunction would be problematic. The full stop is the only mark of the four that requires a capital letter following its use. That is all.
If anyone wants a fight over this, I'll meet them behind billy's bike shed after the pubs close.
Discuss.
tectak

References. The Art of Writing. John Whale ISBN 0-460-04582-2
For the neophyte. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon.
For the academic.
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/depa...ode17.html
For me. Geoff Farrington. Senior Tutor (English Language) GGS. 1959-(?)
(04-17-2013, 06:24 PM)tectak Wrote: [ -> ]I am marginally obsessive, if that is possible, about punctuation. Many of us habitually read our own work out loud in order to get the required or intended emotion into the written word. The technique is valuable...but you then must try to transmit the result to your reader. To do this, punctuate.
Do not misinterpret what I am trying, badly, to say. Not every aspiring poet is interested in passing on such information as punctuation can provide. They will argue for preferring instead to let the readers make up their own minds where the pauses and nuances of speech should be. Fine. This is not for them.
The full stop, colon, semicolon and comma are the basic dictators (and I mean to use that word) of control in the written word. The use of these squiggly marks is universally accepted. They are there to be used.
Of the four, the semicolon is the the most hated, misused, maligned and misunderstood.
Each of the four introduces a pause. I only use punctuation in the way that I was taught many years ago, by an excellent tutor. I am aware that language changes but its most rudimentary, there is a necessity to breathe... don't forget, I am still talking about the advantages of reading your work out loud.
The count 1 comma, count 2 semicolon, count 4(some argue 3) colon and "pause to suit the dramatic effect" (some argue 4)full stop, is my yardstick. A count is a foot or half-foot depending upon the rhythm of the piece. Now, that is a simplification.
The semicolon is different from the rest. Its use is, admittedly, limited but it HAS a use.
When two sentences, and this is of the essence, need to be conjoined without the use of a repeated or redundant conjunction, use the semicolon.
Many shy away from the semicolon because it is also the most feared of all punctuation marks.
I love it; perhaps I love it to excess.
The most important rule is also the simplest. Semicolons should ONLY be used to join TWO complete SENTENCES when a conjunction would be problematic. The full stop is the only mark of the four that requires a capital letter following its use. That is all.
If anyone wants a fight over this, I'll meet them behind billy's bike shed after the pubs close.
Discuss.
tectak

References. The Art of Writing. John Whale ISBN 0-460-04582-2
For the neophyte. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon.
For the academic.
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/depa...ode17.html
For me. Geoff Farrington. Senior Tutor (English Language) GGS. 1959-(?)

There are 3 uses of the mighty semi:

1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction.
2. to connect parts of a sentence or 2 sentences that contain internal punctuation.
3. To connect separate lists that already use commas as separation.

milo

And don't forget line breaks and blank lines.
Quite elegant.

And oh, yes, various sized dashes: –, —

And brackets: [ ], ( ), { }, ⟨ ⟩

And my wabbit's fave: ^

[Image: 1241963885282631008ecuabron_Mad_Wabbit.svg.med.png]



(04-17-2013, 06:40 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 06:24 PM)tectak Wrote: [ -> ]I am marginally obsessive, if that is possible, about punctuation. Many of us habitually read our own work out loud in order to get the required or intended emotion into the written word. The technique is valuable...but you then must try to transmit the result to your reader. To do this, punctuate.
Do not misinterpret what I am trying, badly, to say. Not every aspiring poet is interested in passing on such information as punctuation can provide. They will argue for preferring instead to let the readers make up their own minds where the pauses and nuances of speech should be. Fine. This is not for them.
The full stop, colon, semicolon and comma are the basic dictators (and I mean to use that word) of control in the written word. The use of these squiggly marks is universally accepted. They are there to be used.
Of the four, the semicolon is the the most hated, misused, maligned and misunderstood.
Each of the four introduces a pause. I only use punctuation in the way that I was taught many years ago, by an excellent tutor. I am aware that language changes but its most rudimentary, there is a necessity to breathe... don't forget, I am still talking about the advantages of reading your work out loud.
The count 1 comma, count 2 semicolon, count 4(some argue 3) colon and "pause to suit the dramatic effect" (some argue 4)full stop, is my yardstick. A count is a foot or half-foot depending upon the rhythm of the piece. Now, that is a simplification.
The semicolon is different from the rest. Its use is, admittedly, limited but it HAS a use.
When two sentences, and this is of the essence, need to be conjoined without the use of a repeated or redundant conjunction, use the semicolon.
Many shy away from the semicolon because it is also the most feared of all punctuation marks.
I love it; perhaps I love it to excess.
The most important rule is also the simplest. Semicolons should ONLY be used to join TWO complete SENTENCES when a conjunction would be problematic. The full stop is the only mark of the four that requires a capital letter following its use. That is all.
If anyone wants a fight over this, I'll meet them behind billy's bike shed after the pubs close.
Discuss.
tectak

References. The Art of Writing. John Whale ISBN 0-460-04582-2
For the neophyte. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon.
For the academic.
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/depa...ode17.html
For me. Geoff Farrington. Senior Tutor (English Language) GGS. 1959-(?)

There are 3 uses of the mighty semi:

1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction.
2. to connect parts of a sentence or 2 sentences that contain internal punctuation.
3. To connect separate lists that already use commas as separation.

milo

Yeh...them too! Except I am not sure about 1 or 3. I learn daily.Smile
You don't REALLY want to fight, do you?
Very Best,
tectak
(04-17-2013, 06:49 PM)tectak Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 06:40 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 06:24 PM)tectak Wrote: [ -> ]I am marginally obsessive, if that is possible, about punctuation. Many of us habitually read our own work out loud in order to get the required or intended emotion into the written word. The technique is valuable...but you then must try to transmit the result to your reader. To do this, punctuate.
Do not misinterpret what I am trying, badly, to say. Not every aspiring poet is interested in passing on such information as punctuation can provide. They will argue for preferring instead to let the readers make up their own minds where the pauses and nuances of speech should be. Fine. This is not for them.
The full stop, colon, semicolon and comma are the basic dictators (and I mean to use that word) of control in the written word. The use of these squiggly marks is universally accepted. They are there to be used.
Of the four, the semicolon is the the most hated, misused, maligned and misunderstood.
Each of the four introduces a pause. I only use punctuation in the way that I was taught many years ago, by an excellent tutor. I am aware that language changes but its most rudimentary, there is a necessity to breathe... don't forget, I am still talking about the advantages of reading your work out loud.
The count 1 comma, count 2 semicolon, count 4(some argue 3) colon and "pause to suit the dramatic effect" (some argue 4)full stop, is my yardstick. A count is a foot or half-foot depending upon the rhythm of the piece. Now, that is a simplification.
The semicolon is different from the rest. Its use is, admittedly, limited but it HAS a use.
When two sentences, and this is of the essence, need to be conjoined without the use of a repeated or redundant conjunction, use the semicolon.
Many shy away from the semicolon because it is also the most feared of all punctuation marks.
I love it; perhaps I love it to excess.
The most important rule is also the simplest. Semicolons should ONLY be used to join TWO complete SENTENCES when a conjunction would be problematic. The full stop is the only mark of the four that requires a capital letter following its use. That is all.
If anyone wants a fight over this, I'll meet them behind billy's bike shed after the pubs close.
Discuss.
tectak

References. The Art of Writing. John Whale ISBN 0-460-04582-2
For the neophyte. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon.
For the academic.
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/depa...ode17.html
For me. Geoff Farrington. Senior Tutor (English Language) GGS. 1959-(?)

There are 3 uses of the mighty semi:

1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction.
2. to connect parts of a sentence or 2 sentences that contain internal punctuation.
3. To connect separate lists that already use commas as separation.

milo

Yeh...them too! Except I am not sure about 1 or 3. I learn daily.Smile
You don't REALLY want to fight, do you?
Very Best,
tectak

I should say that I love to fight. The cause or the side never really seems to matter.

There's another use; as a matter of fact, it's the one in this sentence.

(04-17-2013, 07:07 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
There's another use; as a matter of fact, it's the one in this sentence.


that is #2
(04-17-2013, 07:08 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:07 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
There's another use; as a matter of fact, it's the one in this sentence.


that is #2

Nope: #4

(04-17-2013, 07:10 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:08 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:07 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
There's another use; as a matter of fact, it's the one in this sentence.


that is #2

Nope: #4

it would be if there was no "internal punctuation".
(that's the comma btw)
(04-17-2013, 07:16 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:10 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:08 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]that is #2

Nope: #4

it would be if there was no "internal punctuation".
(that's the comma btw)

If you don't like my #4, you could always change your #1 from:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction."
to:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses with or without a conjunction."
which would then include the conjunction "as a matter of fact"
and obviate the need for #4.

(04-17-2013, 07:25 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:16 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:10 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ] Nope: #4

it would be if there was no "internal punctuation".
(that's the comma btw)

If you don't like my #4, you could always change your #1 from:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction."
to:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses with or without a conjunction."
which would then include the conjunction "as a matter of fact"
and obviate the need for #4.


You are mistaking it for # 2. Try removing the comma and see if it still works . . .
(04-17-2013, 07:26 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:25 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:16 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]it would be if there was no "internal punctuation".
(that's the comma btw)

If you don't like my #4, you could always change your #1 from:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction."
to:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses with or without a conjunction."
which would then include the conjunction "as a matter of fact"
and obviate the need for #4.


You are mistaking it for # 2. Try removing the comma and see if it still works . . .

It's illogical to include some conjunctions and exclude others;
so, I guess, we're back to having a #4.
(04-17-2013, 07:40 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:26 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:25 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
If you don't like my #4, you could always change your #1 from:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses without a conjunction."
to:
"1. to join 2 independent connected clauses with or without a conjunction."
which would then include the conjunction "as a matter of fact"
and obviate the need for #4.


You are mistaking it for # 2. Try removing the comma and see if it still works . . .

It's illogical to include some conjunctions and exclude others;
so, I guess, we're back to having a #4.

It is covered by # 2. It is actually the only thing that is covered by # 2.
(04-17-2013, 07:41 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:40 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-17-2013, 07:26 PM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]You are mistaking it for # 2. Try removing the comma and see if it still works . . .

It's illogical to include some conjunctions and exclude others;
so, I guess, we're back to having a #4.

It is covered by # 2. It is actually the only thing that is covered by # 2.
FIIIIIGGGGHHHHHHT!
Tectak, it's nice to see that someone else uses the "how long you want to pause for" method for punctuation. I've never really known it to fail, in poetry at least. I, for one, like semi-colons (some would say that I like them a bit too much). They're like the halfway point between a comma and a full stop, and sometimes one just needs a longer rest before the finish line.

On pause counts, I generally find them interchangeable with the em-dash but I do use them for slightly different purposes: 1, 2, 3, controversial 4 and sometimes just because it's a pretty squiggle.

I am of the opinion that a poem should either contain no punctuation at all, which will contribute to a clean look with only the line breaks to control pace, or full punctuation used correctly.

However, I do know that a comma should not be used before "however". "However" should always be preceded by a semi-colon or a full stop. I like a comma; however, I prefer semi-colons.
(04-18-2013, 04:29 AM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Tectak, it's nice to see that someone else uses the "how long you want to pause for" method for punctuation. I've never really known it to fail, in poetry at least. I, for one, like semi-colons (some would say that I like them a bit too much). They're like the halfway point between a comma and a full stop, and sometimes one just needs a longer rest before the finish line.

On pause counts, I generally find them interchangeable with the em-dash but I do use them for slightly different purposes: 1, 2, 3, controversial 4 and sometimes just because it's a pretty squiggle.

I am of the opinion that a poem should either contain no punctuation at all, which will contribute to a clean look with only the line breaks to control pace, or full punctuation used correctly.

However, I do know that a comma should not be used before "however". "However" should always be preceded by a semi-colon or a full stop. I like a comma; however, I prefer semi-colons.
I, however, prefer to put me before "however".
Best

tectak
As long as you wear underpants.
(04-17-2013, 06:24 PM)tectak Wrote: [ -> ]I am marginally obsessive, if that is possible, about punctuation. Many of us habitually read our own work out loud in order to get the required or intended emotion into the written word. The technique is valuable...but you then must try to transmit the result to your reader. To do this, punctuate.
Do not misinterpret what I am trying, badly, to say. Not every aspiring poet is interested in passing on such information as punctuation can provide. They will argue for preferring instead to let the readers make up their own minds where the pauses and nuances of speech should be. Fine. This is not for them.
The full stop, colon, semicolon and comma are the basic dictators (and I mean to use that word) of control in the written word. The use of these squiggly marks is universally accepted. They are there to be used.
Of the four, the semicolon is the the most hated, misused, maligned and misunderstood.
Each of the four introduces a pause. I only use punctuation in the way that I was taught many years ago, by an excellent tutor. I am aware that language changes but its most rudimentary, there is a necessity to breathe... don't forget, I am still talking about the advantages of reading your work out loud.
The count 1 comma, count 2 semicolon, count 4(some argue 3) colon and "pause to suit the dramatic effect" (some argue 4)full stop, is my yardstick. A count is a foot or half-foot depending upon the rhythm of the piece. Now, that is a simplification.
The semicolon is different from the rest. Its use is, admittedly, limited but it HAS a use.
When two sentences, and this is of the essence, need to be conjoined without the use of a repeated or redundant conjunction, use the semicolon.
Many shy away from the semicolon because it is also the most feared of all punctuation marks.
I love it; perhaps I love it to excess.
The most important rule is also the simplest. Semicolons should ONLY be used to join TWO complete SENTENCES when a conjunction would be problematic. The full stop is the only mark of the four that requires a capital letter following its use. That is all.
If anyone wants a fight over this, I'll meet them behind billy's bike shed after the pubs close.
Discuss.
tectak

References. The Art of Writing. John Whale ISBN 0-460-04582-2
For the neophyte. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon.
For the academic.
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/depa...ode17.html
For me. Geoff Farrington. Senior Tutor (English Language) GGS. 1959-(?)
i was lost when you mentioned semicolon Undecided. i am getting the hange of punctuation but i still have miles to go.
there is this really funny line by... oh shit i can't remember his name. anyhow, he was the editor of Garth Marenghi (fuck, and and a really good director, why can't i remember his name - or even character's name), and he said something like, "Garth's not too good with punctuation, so i look through it; put a comma here, an apostrophe there... no semi-colons, it isn't Joyce'Big Grin

...Dean Learner!!!
i found it funny without know why Big Grin
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