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it seems the shit could soon be hitting the fan, hamas looks like they think the middle east is on their side. Israel look like they know it and need to make a statement. it scares me a bit because i think Israel may have bitten off more than they can chew. even if hamas is slaughtered and wiped of the face of the earth. Israel will become too secular in that region. if hamas isn't wiped out it will definitely grow and as is happening now, their weaponry is more of a problem, both in construction and ability.
as long as israel is not willing to follow international law there will be a problem
i can't see them stopping first. hamas seem to have too many rogue bombers to do the same. so i reckon it's going to end up as a ground war.
(11-20-2012, 10:49 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]i can't see them stopping first. hamas seem to have too many rogue bombers to do the same. so i reckon it's going to end up as a ground war.

I have lost patience with Israel. The land they occupy, in its entirety, is Palestine. They came to colonise, and they are continuing. Why, exactly, should the natives accept that ten square yards of their country be taken from them? Why do other countries blithely egg them on and finance them?

It strikes me that Israel has been resentful ever since their last outing, when they got a bloody nose. Now they see Syria, which normally would bea worry, as it still wants to gets the Golan Heights back, scarcely in a position to do anything. What better time to sort out Hamas Gaza and all the nasty sub-humans who live there? Please don't agree with me -- I shall probably be my usual balanced self in the morning. Wink
i can go along with that ,Abu

it's not gonna be a ground war but a ground slaughter as usual

especially jews doing this to another people strikes me as the ultimate cynicism
IMO for any peace to even begin to be thought about..all sides must drop the history..i think we all know Israel have treated Palastinian's like shit proped by America an that Hammas,PLO etc etc have done some pretty bad things to

unless all sides can drop the you did this an you did that, an look where they are at now, nothing will change

but the Palastinian/Israeli problem goes far beyond their own borders, is been the catalyst for radical Islamic hatred towards the USA for years..i think for many average Arab an Jew peace is wot is wanted..but like in Northern Ireland theres too many that dont want peace an will always carry on the hatred an the bombings
This is what Julie Webb-Pullman (Mercedes' sister) has to say on the situation in Gaza.

Israel hasn't had my sympathy for some time. I agree, the Jewish people are using propaganda and racial vilification in the ultimate act of hypocrisy.
(11-21-2012, 05:06 AM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]This is what Julie Webb-Pullman (Mercedes' sister) has to say on the situation in Gaza.

Israel hasn't had my sympathy for some time. I agree, the Jewish people are using propaganda and racial vilification in the ultimate act of hypocrisy.


I am glad to hear that JM's sis is OK as of now, despite all.

I am re-reading 'The Rebirth and Destiny of Israel', by David Ben Gurion, pioneer and at the time of publication, Prime Minister of Israel. I first read it over 50 years ago, having borrowed it from Hastings Library--or stolen it, perhaps would be more accurate. In those days, the gleeful, open talk of colonisation seemed like the stuff of history (the first essay dates to 1915), and Britain still had colonies. Now, reading the same stuff, the intent seems outrageous, and the language used to describe the Palestinians racist in the extreme. But Jewish people knew all about racism: they were the Chosen People, and other people have chosen them to vent their hatred from time to time. In this book, as much as one may sympathise with his picaresque descriptions of the verdant fields and feelings of freedom from the Galuth-- it is, in fact, a confession from one of the chief architects.

It seems that people have little difficulty in holding opposing opinions at the same time. My wife's Jewish grandfather, born in the romantic-sounding Bessarabia, was very strong on the woes which had befallen the Jews in his native Russia, and of course Germany/Poland, due to the evil of anti-Semitism. Then one day, some Indians moved into his road -- and he had not a good word to say!

None of this would have been possible had the Enlightenment not been snuffed out. Now you can believe the Christ is going to show up in Missouri some time soon, and still be taken seriously as a candidate for the US Presidency. I mean, wtf.... Confused
hope jm's sis stays safe.

one of the main stumbling blocks is hamas. it is seen by all but a few places as a terrorist organisation occupying part of Palestine. as such they're deemed cordon sanitaire as far as any pow wow goes. i get the impression that most Palestinians not belonging to hamas, (the fatah.) aren't into the bombing regimen that's being fed by Iran. Israel aren't being fair and need to take stock of Palestine much more. that said, hamas is playing a game in the hope of bringing down the israeli state. iran is definitely play a part, it needs Israel out of the way in order to mount it's own challenge on the power keg that the middle east has become.
i hope the ceasefire continues. i do fear that israel isn't able to meet the demand of hamas though. going back to the borders of 67 will never happen for Palestine.
Israel already broke the cease-fire.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails....um=twitter

Israel could certainly meet the demands of the cease-fire. They don't want to. Israel does what it wants, always, with impunity.
i remember seeing on the news that hamas fired five rockets after the cease fire.
with any ceasefire there will always be exceptions untill peace is achieved or the fighting starts proper all over again.
hamas could also meet the demands of a cease fire, i'm sure more rockets are moving into gaza as we type.
(11-23-2012, 07:52 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]i remember seeing on the news that hamas fired five rockets after the cease fire.
with any ceasefire there will always be exceptions untill peace is achieved or the fighting starts proper all over again.
hamas could also meet the demands of a cease fire, i'm sure more rockets are moving into gaza as we type.


But --how about Israel's arms? It ranks No 10 in the world :

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-m..._id=Israel

How is it so wrong for Palestine to try to get stuff to defend itself, against its oppressor?

Gah.... better stick to poetry 'n stuff..... Wink
i'd say it's more the size of a belligerence than the size of an army. i think both parties want to much from the other side and i can't see that changing. i'm pretty sure the townships near the border on both sides feel oppressed. one under the fear of invasion, one under the fear of rockets coming over on a daily basis. i'm pretty sure if rockets weren't fired into Israel, Israel wouldn't retaliate. the big problem is the Israelis building on the west bank and elsewhere. on the one side, and the Palestinians wanting to eradicate all of Israel on the other. Palestine wants one state not a two state solution, yet it can't even achieve that within it's own borders. Israel wants a two state solution but only as long it has the lions share of any lands involved and the subjugation of Palestine. while it may be okay getting stuff to defend oneself, it sort of rankles that Iran is the supplier. one country, or faction wants to totally annihilate another is being armed by another state who is really trying to help but to further its own course by shifting the balance of power. i'm sure Iran will be pissed at the role Egypt played at brokering a peace deal. Iran is pretty much being squeezed out of existence and if it continues it will only be a matter of time before there's an Iranian spring.
I continue to think that the Zionist project was a nonsense. I do not go on to conclude that Israel should be destroyed. But it has been making 'facts on the ground' since the first settlers arrived, and arrogantly continues to do so. If it cannot bring itself to withdraw substantially, then it is crying out for the other lot, if they can, to make some 'facts on the ground' of their own. Israel plainly has no business in blocking free coming and going, by sea if by no other means. I am sure many thoughtful Israelis know all this.

I am now wondering what the big deal with Iran is. If they do want a nuclear bomb, why not? Why India and Pakistan, plus US China France and us? Do I like the Ayatollahs? No, I think they are barking mad. But it is a sovereign country.

I think you are right about Iran/Egypt -- I think there will be a bit of pouting going on. Tho why everyone seems to think that this means Egypt is kosher (!) beats me -- a President without a constitution? 'There may be trouble ahead'! WinkWink
(11-23-2012, 10:07 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]i'm pretty sure if rockets weren't fired into Israel, Israel wouldn't retaliate. the big problem is the Israelis building on the west bank and elsewhere. on the one side, and the Palestinians wanting to eradicate all of Israel on the other.

This statement is so incorrect. Palestinians do not have the goal of eradicating Israel. The goal of most Palestinians is to live in peace and prosperity like everyone else in the world. You take Hamas' stated desire and pin it on the entire Palestinian nation. These kinds of fallacies attributed to the Palestinian people, in my opinion, are propaganda perpetuated by Israel and the mainstream media to drum up support for Israeli apartheid and massacres of the Palestinian people.


(11-23-2012, 10:07 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]Palestine wants one state not a two state solution, yet it can't even achieve that within it's own borders.

And this is funny, because the primary reason Palestine can't form its own state is because the world will not let it, and Israel won't even let it live. Furthermore, Israel is living with its massive war machine within "its [Palestine's] own borders." Beyond that, Palestinians have no viable leadership to lead them anywhere either. I don't think any psychologically functional leader will ever emerge from the traumatic living environment imposed upon them by Israel, and there doesn't seem to be any Palestinian outside of Palestine with an inclination toward leading the Palestinian people anywhere.
(11-23-2012, 03:46 PM)Rose Love Wrote: [ -> ]This statement is so incorrect. Palestinians do not have the goal of eradicating Israel. The goal of most Palestinians is to live in peace and prosperity like everyone else in the world. You take Hamas' stated desire and pin it on the entire Palestinian nation. These kinds of fallacies attributed to the Palestinian people, in my opinion, are propaganda perpetuated by Israel and the mainstream media to drum up support for Israeli apartheid and massacres of the Palestinian people.
basically yes, it's what they voted for when they amassed a majority in the Palestinian Parliament 2006 parliamentary elections,after that they more or less ran rough shod over the gaza strip in a way that makes Israel look like boy scouts. that's why it's a two state country. fatah has little or no control and if hamas decides to rule all of Palestine its opposition will be crushed, Iran and other outside forces will see to it. i saw people from both sides calling for the annihilation of the other. but most of all i saw hamas leaders baying for it. do you think they'd listen to the good people of Palestine? it's like the Irish conflict. in general Irish people were not terrorist. they were led by terrorist, under a united front. one Ireland, Palestine is two states, Gaza, and the other part. and no matter how good and caring most Palestinians are, they would not be able to stop the total destruction of Israel from the river Jorden to the Mediterranean sea.

(11-23-2012, 10:07 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]Palestine wants one state not a two state solution, yet it can't even achieve that within it's own borders.
Quote:And this is funny, because the primary reason Palestine can't form its own state is because the world will not let it,
the rest of the world can't stop it being one state if it so desires. the two state solution refers to two states living in harmony. that is something no countries but Israel and Palestine can sort out. some countries see hamas as a terrorist organisation and as such won't deal with it.

Quote:and Israel won't even let it live.
i agree but then again, neither would let the other live.

Quote:Furthermore, Israel is living with its massive war machine within "its [Palestine's] own borders."
in what year did Palestine own it? when did the Jews first own it? or the Babylonians or Persians the Muslims? for much of modern times the Jews dwelled there at one point Rome ruled there. for a long time Israel wasn't a homeland for Jews and after the war the British and French gave them Israel which at the time had come under Palestinian rule. (another argument for another time Smile

it was the alleged birthplace of Christianity. 700 years later the Muslims birthed their god, the arguments about who owned it are not as pertinent as who owns it now, and who should own it now. my belief as an outsider is that they should both own as two states. the problem is two or even three sided if you count Hamas. my belief is that both/three parties lay down their weapons and come to an agreement which allows both sides to live in harmony.

Quote:Beyond that, Palestinians have no viable leadership to lead them anywhere either. I don't think any psychologically functional leader will ever emerge from the traumatic living environment imposed upon them by Israel, and there doesn't seem to be any Palestinian outside of Palestine with an inclination toward leading the Palestinian people anywhere.
maybe there will be one of those, cometh the moment, cometh the man , times soon. but i can't see it. i can't see Israel not extend it's housing and population outcrops on the west bank either. No country will willingly walk away from what it perceives to be its own and there in lies the problem. none of these two/three states have blood free hands. both are as guilty as the other.
(11-23-2012, 11:43 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]I continue to think that the Zionist project was a nonsense. I do not go on to conclude that Israel should be destroyed. But it has been making 'facts on the ground' since the first settlers arrived, and arrogantly continues to do so. If it cannot bring itself to withdraw substantially, then it is crying out for the other lot, if they can, to make some 'facts on the ground' of their own. Israel plainly has no business in blocking free coming and going, by sea if by no other means. I am sure many thoughtful Israelis know all this.
that's fair comment though Israel wants to minimise the chances of hamas getting their hands on some real guided missile shit, which would probably come in from the sea supplied by Russia or Iran.


Quote:I am now wondering what the big deal with Iran is. If they do want a nuclear bomb, why not? Why India and Pakistan, plus US China France and us? Do I like the Ayatollahs? No, I think they are barking mad. But it is a sovereign country.
basically they haven't got one and that's how they want it to stay. most of the world see n Korea and Iran as rogue states. China and Russia included, it's why they veto all efforts to stop them getting the nukes. when there fired, it won't be at them. with nukes you would have another third Reich on your hands. i suppose there's always been a third Reich in those countries but with nukes they'd go on the march

Quote:I think you are right about Iran/Egypt -- I think there will be a bit of pouting going on. Tho why everyone seems to think that this means Egypt is kosher (!) beats me -- a President without a constitution? 'There may be trouble ahead'! WinkWink
if i were to put two and two together. i'd get the usa offering allegiance to mursi and Egypt if the get their allies Hamas to stfu and take part in a cease fire, along with a hefty loan, but the usa are wily bastards when a push comes to a shove and knowing mursi would find it to now decry the cease fire without looking like an arsewipe; the usa states that he's not playing fair and everything that's happening there should be through the rule of the people by constitutional change. the Egyptian people probably won't stand for something worse than mubarak ever was and will oust his bum out of power.. of course the usa will no longer side with mursi and will egg the Egyptians on to usurp him. probably what they had in mind since the first day he took off. it was just lucky that he was still in power when the Israeli problem arose Smile
(11-24-2012, 04:24 PM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-23-2012, 11:43 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]I continue to think that the Zionist project was a nonsense. I do not go on to conclude that Israel should be destroyed. But it has been making 'facts on the ground' since the first settlers arrived, and arrogantly continues to do so. If it cannot bring itself to withdraw substantially, then it is crying out for the other lot, if they can, to make some 'facts on the ground' of their own. Israel plainly has no business in blocking free coming and going, by sea if by no other means. I am sure many thoughtful Israelis know all this.
that's fair comment though Israel wants to minimise the chances of hamas getting their hands on some real guided missile shit, which would probably come in from the sea supplied by Russia or Iran.


Quote:I am now wondering what the big deal with Iran is. If they do want a nuclear bomb, why not? Why India and Pakistan, plus US China France and us? Do I like the Ayatollahs? No, I think they are barking mad. But it is a sovereign country.
basically they haven't got one and that's how they want it to stay. most of the world see n Korea and Iran as rogue states. China and Russia included, it's why they veto all efforts to stop them getting the nukes. when there fired, it won't be at them. with nukes you would have another third Reich on your hands. i suppose there's always been a third Reich in those countries but with nukes they'd go on the march

Quote:I think you are right about Iran/Egypt -- I think there will be a bit of pouting going on. Tho why everyone seems to think that this means Egypt is kosher (!) beats me -- a President without a constitution? 'There may be trouble ahead'! WinkWink
if i were to put two and two together. i'd get the usa offering allegiance to mursi and Egypt if the get their allies Hamas to stfu and take part in a cease fire, along with a hefty loan, but the usa are wily bastards when a push comes to a shove and knowing mursi would find it to now decry the cease fire without looking like an arsewipe; the usa states that he's not playing fair and everything that's happening there should be through the rule of the people by constitutional change. the Egyptian people probably won't stand for something worse than mubarak ever was and will oust his bum out of power.. of course the usa will no longer side with mursi and will egg the Egyptians on to usurp him. probably what they had in mind since the first day he took off. it was just lucky that he was still in power when the Israeli problem arose Smile

But Billy --- that was some foresight on my part! I did not expect Mursi to declare himself God the following day, and put the place back into melt-down....Big Grin
hehe. i think he shot himself in the oot. after the Israeli conflict mursi had everyone and almost everything in the palm of his hand. sadly the middle east haven't yet learned to keep schtum about irrevocable powers and blurt it out like their invincible, did he see what happened to gadafi and mubarak for god sake Huh he can't be all that smart.