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''Meter is present in every sentence spoken aloud -- and poetry at its best should be heard as well as seen on a page.''

Leanne made this interesting assertion, in the thread about the no-hopers who don't comment, or do not comment in a manner acceptable to others. (I, personally never post poems, but comment occasionally, and have therefore stored up much treasure.) But --- what about this meter business? Is she right, or, uncharacteristically, talking nonsense? Is not the nature of meter, as some might hold, that it must have a repetitive element to it? Does ordinary speech have that? What would Moliere's 'Bourgeois Gentilhomme have thought? He who boasted after his lesson ''Je parle de la prose!'' (I put that in to frighten off the very people others have done so much to make feel at home...Boo!) Smile
(11-20-2012, 08:38 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]''Meter is present in every sentence spoken aloud -- and poetry at its best should be heard as well as seen on a page.''

Leanne made this interesting assertion, in the thread about the no-hopers who don't comment, or do not comment in a manner acceptable to others. (I, personally never post poems, but comment occasionally, and have therefore stored up much treasure.) But --- what about this meter business? Is she right, or, uncharacteristically, talking nonsense? Is not the nature of meter, as some might hold, that it must have a repetitive element to it? Does ordinary speech have that? What would Moliere's 'Bourgeois Gentilhomme have thought? He who boasted after his lesson ''Je parle de la prose!'' (I put that in to frighten off the very people others have done so much to make feel at home...Boo!) Smile
first off, this post is an excellent excample of what taking part is all about, you don't have to post poetry to take part in the site....back on topic...

i can only answer for me. in general, using meter has improved my poetry no end. it flows much better since i learned what an iamb was. doing some of the form exercises that leanne sets not only help me think with better clarity, they also help me check the meter, while it doesn't need to be iambic it needs sto have that thing called rhythm. so da/dum da/dum

could be a da/da dum/dum. it's a balance the even outs those nasty bumps. meter isn't always needed though and like everything else that a craft has, exceptions to the rule exist, do you want the piece to be discordant, do you want to set a mood with a thump, thump, thump,
good free verse doesn't stick to rigid meter and it can be just as good as metered poetry. i think speech does have a metrical slant to it, some countries have it more so than others. i think she made excellent sense in that meter is much more prevalent in good poetry than not.meter is an excellent tool to learn rhythm with. like all trades, it's best to learn how to use all the tools you can so that you can leave out those tools that don't fit the job at hand. most of what i said is probably shite, cos i'm still not up well enough to give a reliable answer where meter is the topic Blush
It is certainly the case that our stressed meter (de DUM) is similar to, say, German, or Dutch, but difficult for French or, for that matter, Brazilian-speakers.

Perhaps Leanne merely meant, that there will be bits of meter in a spoken sentence. For example, I might say to you ''Hey Billy, how about a beer?'' (De DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM) and you my reply ''No her-indoors won't let me out'' (De DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM again) Then me ''We'll if you can,give us a shout'' (again)You : ''Oh fuck! it's her! She'll catch me here!''

So that would all be clickety-click. But I might have began, ''Billy old fruit, how about a beer'' and that's no good, but bits can be taken from it --the second bit we already did, 'Billy old fruit,' would slip easily into doggerel, even accurate, such as ''Billy old fruit, you're a daft old coot'' and such. Yes: that's what she meant. She probably does know it's what she meant, but there 'tis Wink
:p

Metric units don't have to make a regular pattern -- everyone has "speech patterns" and we can apply scansion to them (and then argue endlessly about what scansion method/ notation we're using, then bop each other on the head with a bust of Coleridge). Good public speakers, for example, always exploit meter and other sonic devices -- even if they're not aware that's what they're doing.

When you break it all down, meter is really just the art of getting the emphasis to fall in the right places so your words have an impact.
I always struggle with meter. I find it easy enough to hear and whenever i go to any practice pages and it is highlighted, it is obvious. But then when I start to write, the other considerations (word choice and subject flow) fill my mind and I find it very hard to hold the meter. I end up with a crayon and a bit of paper by my computor to make a phisical representation of the meter (those pesky stresses... and syllables if i'm in formal mode)...so that all in all it becomes a bit laborious and then my poem lacks spontineity and vigiour. (Which I guess is sort of an echo of what I asked in the passion or guts thread).
I guess that's why I need to be on a poetry forum and keep practicing.!
It helps to set the meter in your head well in advance. If you've got daDUM daDUM going through your mind already, you'll usually find yourself fitting words into the pattern. Or pick a tune and write to it -- folk songs or hymns are the best.
''It helps to set the meter in your head well in advance. If you've got daDUM daDUM going through your mind already, you'll usually find yourself fitting words into the pattern''

I think this is one of the most perceptive and straight-forward pieces of advice I have heard. It is an explanation, in a way, of why 'formal' poetry does not have to be forced: the structure is sitting there, waiting the thematic blocks to drop onto it. Or words even. Smile
sound advice though i sometimes tend to do the piece then change it to suite a meter. unlike cidermaid, i'm okay with doing that way. generally any changes i do are for the better, often a spontaneous poem without edits is a not so well written one.
Leanne's advice--that specific advice--is the only reason I even tried to write in form. I started saying ˘ ⋀ ˘ ⋀ – ⋀ ˘ ⋀ ˘ ⋀
But SOFT! What LIGHT through YONder WINdow BREAKS

Then it was substituted with Da DUM Da DUM...and so on

Then it became the lines I was working with.

It was a much more intuitive process than I had previously used.

Thank god.
I think the best I have done of meter, and even some when I kind of half-broke with meter, were done when I had got so immersed in some form that it would run through my head even asleep, and I would wake with the finished thing. I must try again -it's just a question of habit.


Hmmm.........Smile
(11-21-2012, 09:40 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]I think the best I have done of meter, and even some when I kind of half-broke with meter, were done when I had got so immersed in some form that it would run through my head even asleep, and I would wake with the finished thing. I must try again -it's just a question of habit.


Hmmm.........Smile

I can relate to that. It drives me mad...the thinking in poetry rhythm thing late into the night, when i want to sleep. Also it happens when I'm working, fortunatly we run our own business so I can just down tools for a mo. If i' don't then often it is gone again and that is even more frustrating. I've taken to having a pen and paper by the bed because my brain won't quit till I've got it down somewhere.
(11-25-2012, 02:37 AM)cidermaid Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2012, 09:40 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]I think the best I have done of meter, and even some when I kind of half-broke with meter, were done when I had got so immersed in some form that it would run through my head even asleep, and I would wake with the finished thing. I must try again -it's just a question of habit.


Hmmm.........Smile

I can relate to that. It drives me mad...the thinking in poetry rhythm thing late into the night, when i want to sleep. Also it happens when I'm working, fortunatly we run our own business so I can just down tools for a mo. If i' don't then often it is gone again and that is even more frustrating. I've taken to having a pen and paper by the bed because my brain won't quit till I've got it down somewhere.


There must be many pens and notebooks all over the world, lying on bed-side tables, and raising all sorts of suspicions in spouses...Wink

What is currently driving me mad, is my nosiness about your riches-to-rags story, and the six court cases, and advice you were given. Wink But please on no account feed it; I shall just get worse!

I think sometimes just recording a fragment is good -- then all one needs to do is to avoid putting it in the wrong poem. Smile
What is currently driving me mad, is my nosiness about your riches-to-rags story, and the six court cases, and advice you were given. Wink But please on no account feed it; I shall just get worse!

The real story beggers belief and most people can't cope with it ...Job only got knobbled for a few months ...we have been under a curse for 7yrs and counting. 7yrs and counting...now there's a got poem title for you.
Alternatively, "Job was a lucky bastard"
Seven years would be a good title. I always had an issue with Job. Kids all die, property ruined, boils, one servant always escaping to deliver the bad news like some demonic Westerm Telegram delivery man. In the end, Job gets new kids, new stuff, the boils dry up, and he gets to tell his friends he told them so. Everything is now okay.

I've got to write my take on that story.
Make it metric Wink
(11-25-2012, 07:30 AM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Make it metric Wink
Well, I had some luck with my first kyrielle maybe I'll do Job: The Endless refrain
back to the job in hand kidlettes Wink

when you want it, good meter is better than no meter or bad meter and when you don't want it, it all bad meter. at the end of the day, it's a tool that can be used as a scalpel or a hammer, it's a tool that can be layed down and ignored. the craft is knowing which is the better option.
(11-25-2012, 07:18 AM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Alternatively, "Job was a lucky bastard"

HystericalHysterical love it feeling better already. Thanks.