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holy week is upon here in the philippines and it surprises me every year to see how much people get into the catholic side of it. lot's of town have a mock jesus being crucified. i'ts not something i'd take part in or even watch, but i don't mock such beliefs or re enactments.
my troubles come with a lack of understanding, why do they do it? i'm always the sceptic and in these cases i have to ask "do they really believe it"
this thread is basically to be used for discussion about belief, the catholic side is just one facet of belief and i'm using it as a stepping stone to all beliefs we may have here on the site.
i think people just like rituals and thinking they're doing something important and they probably believe in what they're doing otherwise it would become rediculous
does all belief use rituals, here, Catholicism always seems more prominent. does it have anything to do with poverty?
[quote='billy' pid='93732' dateline='1333507948']
holy week is upon here in the philippines and it surprises me every year to see how much people get into the catholic side of it. lot's of town have a mock jesus being crucified. i'ts not something i'd take part in or even watch, but i don't mock such beliefs or re enactments.
my troubles come with a lack of understanding, why do they do it? i'm always the sceptic and in these cases i have to ask "do they really believe it"
this thread is basically to be used for discussion about belief, the catholic side is just one facet of belief and i'm using it as a stepping stone to all beliefs we may have here on the site.
***

'Belief' is a dangerous word for the unwary ...

King Ahab required a daily 'fix' of support for his
belief, constant reinforcement. The more he believed,
the more he needed to believe.

Captain Ahab the same.

My definition-- If you 'believed' a child would fall
out of a ten story window in an apartment with no
screens-- he's starting to climb up on the window
sill--you would NOT rush over and pull him back--

because
you believed he would fall.

Such is the power, the absolute comprehensive con-
tainment of a person's belief.

Because of that I try to find another propositional
verb to substitute for 'belief.'

v
It is because they actually believe that stuff, Billy. TV preachers and Internet evangelist may not believe it, but those everyday folks believe with their whole heart that they are putting up treasures in heaven by participating in those rituals and so they make sure that they never miss the opportunity.

My family isn't Catholic, but are very strict protestants. For the first twenty years of my life I never once saw my mother's hair cut. She never even got it trimmed because they believed that it was a sin. She felt like it was a sacrifice that she made for God on Earth that would be rewarded in heaven.

I don't believe quite that way at all . . .

I have a sack full of doubts about God and what I should be doing exactly, but I'll be honest- and I don't think I could've said this six months ago- I have this certainty inside me that there is something real about it.

I started praying. No certain time, no certain words- just praying. Most of the prayers I have heard in my life are petitions. Most of the petitions I've heard were delivered in a wailing, redneck-sounding rendition of the King James version of the Bible ad-libbed. Always asking for something . . . so I thought I'd just start thanking God for the good stuff and not ask for much of anything until it counted. And you know what? It seems to be working.

I've had a lot more jobs lately and things just seem to be going my way. Now maybe it is just because its summer time and the season is bringing the extra work. Or maybe I just psyched myself out into believing God has anything to do with it.

Maybe thinking of the good things has been such a positive influence in my life that it has manifested into actual good fortune.

Maybe that night when I was pulled over on the side of the road with the Statie behind me flashing red and blue lights and had no valid driver's license and I silently prayed (or maybe aloud, I can't remember) it was just a coincidence that the Trooper let me slide without even giving me a warning. It certainly could be a coincidence, but I want to believe it was more.

Whatever it is, I think I'll keep it up for a while and see what happens next Smile
V wrote;
My definition-- If you 'believed' a child would fall
out of a ten story window in an apartment with no
screens-- he's starting to climb up on the window
sill--you would NOT rush over and pull him back--

i see what you're saying but what about a belief with no physical cause.

for instance would you believe a child would fall merely on seeing an open window? (no child)
while yes i would rush over and pull the child i saw climbing up back, i would not wait near an open window in the belief a child would fall, using the open window as my only proof that a child could fall.
(04-04-2012, 12:42 PM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]It is because they actually believe that stuff, Billy. TV preachers and Internet evangelist may not believe it, but those everyday folks believe with their whole heart that they are putting up treasures in heaven by participating in those rituals and so they make sure that they never miss the opportunity.
is it? isn't it sometimes peer pressure, or the fact that without that belief, living life would be unbearable. isn't it sometimes the need to believe more than the actual belief itself that matters.

haven't we through the eons prove that we don't actually believe we just use some deity or thing as a means of focus.
wtf?are you guys serious?i let you in on something,GOD ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR MIND.no mind,no god,so does he exist?NO.so all rituals are for self satisfaction
thats something i believe as well sj, i'm saying that people created their gods in order to have a crutch which helped them through the hard times. that said a belief a god and a god not existing are two different things,
yes,on both accounts
Some genuinely believe. Some want to believe. Some have been brought up to believe and have just never thought about whether it actually makes any sense. Some pretend to believe because they believe it's expected by society or their families. Some don't believe but are attempting to deceive.

And srijantje has a good point about people just plain liking rituals--they're often colorful and exciting--they're familiar--they're usually social and upbeat. You don't have to believe in the Easter Bunny to have fun hiding chocolate and watching your kids find it.
yes,rituals make things interesting,you think through them you communicate with [the]god.where i live it's like that
how do we sort out the believers from the players then, my ex partner does the medium thing, (does the name john sound familiar to you) not does it, but believes in it. what's the root cause of belief in something like that. i guess it's made up of more than a few things as you suggest but why, is it in our genes? do we have a belief gene?
"how do we sort out the believers from the players then" Why do you think we have to do that? Whether someone genuinely believes in an imaginary friend or only claims to believe in an imaginary friend makes no difference to me. Either way, they're delusional and best avoided. If you mean how does a genuine believer tell whether someone else is a genuine believer or not? Again, what difference does it really make whether they're giving their life savings to a madman or a conman?

The root cause of belief is a desire to understand the inconceivably complex. "The universe is so big how could it have possibly come about?" "How much do you know about astrophysics?" "Um...I'm a Leo..." "Right. Yeah. Well, the universe was knocked up as a sort of DIY project about 6000 years ago by an old guy who was lonely and we're sort of like his pets." "Ah, yeah, my mother has a rabbit--it's all she's got now that dads dead. Thanks."

A belief gene? Not specifically. All humans want to understand things. All humans are capable of creative thought, and of comparing ideas. But humans are all different. Different hair colour, different IQ, different weights, different propensities to seek closure or to be able to tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty.
we are but a pimple in the arse end of a tape worm. and when it shits us out the universe will be at an end. Pray that tape worm adds a inch every so often because there be our deliverance/
I thought Mark's post both honest, and in a sense courageous. I do not think that sneers and jeers become anyone.

If one finds what he says not supported by reason, one may say that without having a laugh at the believer.

Many people here would never ask Billy's question, as it would not cross their minds, so distant are they from belief. If one does address it, and just falls back on 'fairy-land' etc, that is sloppy thinking.

For a good reason, no-one has a comprehensive understanding of science, and thus not of the workings of this world. On the other hand, 'superstition' is rife: why does Nadal goes through the exact same ritual before and during each match? Why do almost all sportsmen? Why do the fans? Why do I? No-one else at the Pig, of course--- much too cool. Rather let your team lose...Big Grin

I was taken by the picture Mark painted -- esp the non-cutting of hair, and why that would be a sin, tho I saw the sacrifice bit.

It seems there is a religious emotion, and belief is genuine. Else wtf would people strap bombs on themselves for?
whipped up religious emotion?
here in the philippines we also have a sect (it's know as such) that doesn't believe women should cut their hair too.
and though outside the sewer, i wouldn't want to mock someone elses belief. that said i'm still struggling to come to terms with tithes people pay certain churches. why scientists have a need to sort out the chaos of the universe, in the belief it can be done. i know everyone doesn't think like me but why not. why don't people giggle in church (apart from kids)
if we placed a child in a room from birth to adulthood, would it have a belief in god? (yes, i know that would be cruel, and i would be agaisnt such an experiment) isn't god something we teach. at one time i can see that we had to have a need for belief in order for life to go on. we still need it now but not as much. i can understand how and why they thought the sun and moon gods, how they could imagine gods of the sea and sky. it just seems that every time we discover something we stop believing in one thing and begin believing in something else.
"look thunder" yes that's Zues.
well actually no it's created through molecules rubbing each other up in a certain way,
then it's baby jesus.
i know where different but most of the time we're followers. why is that? i have all these stupid questions and no answers. what would happen if all religious artefacts disappeared and no mention of a god was uttered for a 1000 year?
we'd just create a new go i hear everyone shout....and i agree; but what god would it be? the almighty plasma beam?
Sometimes I really want to know what goes through the minds of those who are devoutly religious. This is not a value judgment... I genuinely want to get an idea. Because I was brought up Catholic, but somehow it didn't stick with me so well. Doubt crept in slowly but surely, as i began to realize I was just forcing myself to learn these things in a rote manner -- no "truth" screamed at me. To me religion looked felt more and more like a placebo. Yet for other kids, the truth of it was palpable.

I really want to know why it is that I can't believe the concept of some guy from 2000 years ago dying as a sacrifice to save us from sins that we are being eternally judged for based on the universally mandated moral compass of some almighty creator. Yet this other person, who is no more or less intelligent than I, can believe it wholeheartedly. What could be the thoughts in their head that makes it so convincing for them?
i don't think intelligence has anything to do with it,your emotional make up does
Though the worship of objects can be tempting it's also incredibly vulgar to me. When I think about people worshipping a crucifix with a dummy nailed to it I think that I might as well drop to my knees and worship the can of varnish in the living room. I don't want to unfairly judge anyone; that's just how it comes across to me. I had a similar reaction when I saw footage of a Muslim cleric weeping at perceived slander against Allah and the prophet Muhammad. I found it hard to sympathise, because his sobbing felt profoundly undignified and pathetic.
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