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When I read and enjoy a piece of verse my pleasure is multi-layered- I gain joy from seeing the skill of the creator manifested. I love to puzzle out how they have created the rhythm, the rhyme (if used) and to read their chosen words and to ponder on their imagery.

I sit and write this at an old solid desk, it has a knee hole and on one side five shallow drawers hidden by a roll-top front which disappears underneath when I roll it down. On the other side there is one shallow drawer and a large drawer. The desk is too big for my room but I love it. I love it because of the care taken in its design and creation. It is made by a craftsman.

A flat-pack, quickly assembled, useful, light desk may catch my eye but on closer examination I know I will never love it as I do this battered desk of mine.....and this is how I feel about some modern poems that I read.





Dense Poetry

The poem was so densely packed
with symbolism, metaphor, and allusion,
that the letters forming the words
became very tightly compressed
losing their individual form,
and merging to create a heavy
viscous substance. However,
having so little in common
with the bland background,
this amalgam simply slid
off the unworthy surface
leaving behind a stark
white page where
a poem had
once
re
si
de
d
.
.
.


©2011 ~Erthona
The desk I'm sitting at is made from a sheet of half-inch plywood
laid across an old merchandise display rack. My dad made it in about
5 minutes many years ago. He has passed now, but his 'desk' is still
here and it still works quite well. I love poems written like it, as well
as poems written on it.

"Modern poems" is a problematic term for me. Books in second-hand
stores with "modern" or "contemporary" in their titles usually have
publishing dates ranging from 2009 AD to 3200 BC. Smile

Sumerian Love Poems:
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/a..._poems.htm

---------------------

And yes, in poetry a pound of feathers actually weighs more.

Dense poem:

     < life is its own metaphor >

       this cow
       on the other hand
       just shit on my foot

              - - -





(12-26-2011, 10:07 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]The desk I'm sitting at is made from a sheet of half-inch plywood
laid across an old merchandise display rack. My dad made it in about
5 minutes many years ago. He has passed now, but his 'desk' is still
here and it still works quite well. I love poems written like it, as well
as poems written on it.

"Modern poems" is a problematic term for me. Books in second-hand
stores with "modern" or "contemporary" in their titles usually have
publishing dates ranging from 2009 AD to 3200 BC. Smile

Sumerian Love Poems:
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/a..._poems.htm

---------------------

And yes, in poetry a pound of feathers actually weighs more.

Dense poem:

     < life is its own metaphor >

       this cow
       on the other hand
       just shit on my foot

              - - -


I don't know what else to call new poetry. 'Modern' is a term I am using to mean poetry being written as I speak. I am quite willing to read a poem which has been written in five minutes - but, unless the creator is an undiscovered genius, I will only get five minutes of pleasure from it.
(12-26-2011, 09:46 PM)Erthona Wrote: [ -> ]Dense Poetry

The poem was so densely packed
with symbolism, metaphor, and allusion,
that the letters forming the words
became very tightly compressed
losing their individual form,
and merging to create a heavy
viscous substance. However,
having so little in common
with the bland background,
this amalgam simply slid
off the unworthy surface
leaving behind a stark
white page where
a poem had
once
re
si
de
d
.
.
.


©2011 ~Erthona

I admire and take delight in the works of poets who have crafted a poem with care, including bare-bone verses devoid of metaphors, symbolism and allusion. This is not the point at issue. If I read a poem and I find it exciting and fulfilling it is invariably because I like what they have written AND I am bowled over by their skill.
I cannot see any reason why there would be a firm relationship between the time and effort taken to write a poem, and the quality of the result. Certainly, something carelessly scribbled off is unlikely to appeal; but so is some belaboured effort of months. Surely so much depends on knowledge and skill acquired over time?

The analogy with other crafts, such as cabinet-making or joinery, is a good one. Yet-- how many times have I looked at jewellery, or furniture, only to be left regretful that the craftsman had amazing skill, and technique, and no flair, imagination or taste. It is as if Morgan, makers of highly sought-after cars, decided that it would be just the thing, were they to paint Mickey on the side, or the stupid Olympic 2012 logo (chosen by God knows who, in a country which makes money from its design skills).

Where would the Japanese National Living Treasure be? He meditates, for weeks, then chooses the tree to be cut to fuel the kiln for the pot he is to make; the same with clay to be dug; finally, in seconds, he throws the pot. But I have seen such a pot, and can testify that whether any of that was necessary, he certainly made a breathtakingly fine pot, quite plain.
I think you misunderstand me....time and effort are not the point at issue - skill, expertise, experience, acquired knowledge - call it what you will - is what I admire and delight in seeing in a finished poem.

I am who I am - I like things which are done well. I cannot feel comfortable with my own work if it is slap-dash....it does have a back-lash, though - since sometimes I over-work stuff and the original spark gets lost, but, mostly attention to detail does pay dividends.

In music a young person may show promise, but it is a rare thing for that to blossom without the acquisition of skill.

ps I like 'slap-dash' and 'back-lash' I may squirrel that away!

I can see your point (though if you comb your hair right you can hide it).

What's being pointed out is that there's no way for a reader to tell how much
time has been put into a piece.

Just look at the universe: six days!

Oh, wait, I guess you're right, that one IS a bit obvious, isn't it?


Why are we debating? I do believe we are on the same side.

(but, (quiet chuckle) I see you have shot yourself in the foot)
(12-31-2011, 07:24 PM)grannyjill Wrote: [ -> ]I think you misunderstand me....time and effort are not the point at issue - skill, expertise, experience, acquired knowledge - call it what you will - is what I admire and delight in seeing in a finished poem.

I am who I am - I like things which are done well. I cannot feel comfortable with my own work if it is slap-dash....it does have a back-lash, though - since sometimes I over-work stuff and the original spark gets lost, but, mostly attention to detail does pay dividends.

In music a young person may show promise, but it is a rare thing for that to blossom without the acquisition of skill.

ps I like 'slap-dash' and 'back-lash' I may squirrel that away!

Of course I do not seek to change you, Jill, that would be daft.

There are many things one enjoys, which one has no idea how the are made: this lap-top, for example. Perhaps I would appreciate it in a different way, if I understood its workings, but ultimately, its attraction is that it does things I want. If I look at some Old Master, I like it , or I don't--it will not help to know that it is one of the earliest paintings to use cobalt. But there is a secondary, and quite separate interest and appreciation of the craftsmanship.

As for back-lash etc, you also, perhaps appropriately here, can have 'balderdash', and even cheat with the Russian 'karandash' (pencil) derived from French 'crayon d'ache'. Wink
You know Russian? Crikey you are clever....I shall not attempt to argue with you any more, you are bound to win! (well, you may appear to win - but that's another story)
Re: Modern Poems

When I say "modern poems" I mean poems written during the modernistic period (circa 1900-1980's), or poems written in that style. It is also known as "Imagism" as outlined by Ezra Pound in "Ideogrammic Method". It is the period that precedes "Post-modernism" and follows Post-romanticism.

Besides Pound, William Carlos William and HD, are some of the more recognizable poets associated with "modern poems", or "modernistic poetry". It is characterized by the attempt to write objective poetry, or poetry stripped of the subjectivity and moralizing of the Post-romantic period, and stylistically it is stripped of most punctuation, capitalization, and often composed of short phrases, generally terse descriptive phrases. In current examples it is often absent general grammar, as it simply a number of dependant clause loosely strung together, ignoring the idea of standard sentence structure.

Note: I use the term "modern poems" although less specific than "Imagism", as most people do not know the term "Imagism", and also because it incorporates more than just strict Imagism, such as the "Beat" period.
(01-01-2012, 07:34 AM)grannyjill Wrote: [ -> ]You know Russian? Crikey you are clever....I shall not attempt to argue with you any more, you are bound to win! (well, you may appear to win - but that's another story)

I have never much admired 'cleverness'; I gladly suffer fools, feeling more at home in their company. Anyway, the Russian is now gone where rust goes -- tho I used to read it easily, and speak quite fluently, which was helpful when, for example, my late wife's Russian granny got in a state after I had changed a light-bulb, as she had no money with which to pay the poor electrician (me), and when the sweet old lady muttered about the maid they had -an antique Irishwoman - with whom she was convinced the grandfather was having an affair. Some of the things she said were not at all pretty, and centred on the idea of calling her a prostitute -in Russian. At which the maid would say 'That's right dear' . It was like something from the Theatre of the Absurd, which I loved a good deal at the time. Now, I am the maid and the granny in male form. Oh, the lost and April days! Shit, I think this is a non-rambling thread!Wink
I can never remember if a thread is to ramble or not, I don't think so though. Actually Ed, what you describe seems much more entertaining than the "Theatre of the Absurd" ever did to me, "Cascades of ca-ca!"

But I concur about being old-maids (ha!) or as Dylan said,

"I see people in the park forgetting their troubles and woes
They’re drinking and dancing, wearing bright-colored clothes
All the young men with their young women looking so good
Well, I’d trade places with any of them
In a minute, if I could"
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Too tangential I fear, too tangential in this new year! Back to the topic Robin!
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Multilayer

The term multilayer poem makes me think of Blake's fourfold vision, which meant it operated on several levels, such as historical, cultural, personal, emotional, mental, physical, or spiritual. That is to say his poem "America, A Prophecy" could be seen as commentary on a historical event, but it also works equally well as mankind's struggle to reach enlightenment. So that can be one meaning of the word as it applies to poetry.

However it can also refer to certain mechanisms used by poetry such as cadence, rhyme, meter and so on. Most people think of rhyme as being only end rhyme, but rhyme can be used through a poem to subtly emphasize certain things, it can be used in conjunction with cadence to create a definite (non-metrical), rhythmical pattern. Walt Whitman was very adapt at this.

My experience is that neither usage come about by chance. Certainly one must have the natural aptitude for it, just as one cannot be tone deaf and expect to be a vocalist, on the other hand it does not come about simply from talent, but a combination of talent and effort. In the beginning the efforts tend to look awkward, just as one looks when learning to ride a bike, but after one has had time to practice sufficiently the ability falls from conscious awareness, and simply begins to operate, because at some point one must give oneself to the muse. There are many poets whose works are layered in both of these ways, in fact, it is probably the first marker of an emerging poet, but the complexity that emerges is so vast it could never be something under conscious control. That is to say, something that one sat down and consciously figured out. So in the final analysis it is not so much a decision to be multilayered in ones poetry, but to commit to the preparation that makes such a thing possible.

Dale

All of my poems are multilayered. My technique is to write the first layer
and let each reader add another. Oh, wait, it just occurred to me that
many of my poems aren't multilayered as they have yet to have anyone
read them... back to the drawing board. Oh, wait again, am I not not
chopped liver? I'm a reader of my own poems and if I wait a few weeks
they surely seem to have added a layer or two, so, yes, I'll go with the
first statement: all of my poems are multilayered.

Of course, all multilayers aren't the same. Here's an example of a
multilayered poem where all the layers are the same:


    < profound events >
   
   i had a dream last night:
   
   i walk out to the car
   start it up
   drive to the gas station
   fill it with gas
   and drive it back home
   
   then i wake up because the dog is barking at the cat
   because the cat has swatted him again
   
   i have no idea what the purpose of a dream like this could be
   (my car didn't even need gas)
   but it's probably the same as writing a poem about it
   
           - - -

Looks more like an oil slick Smile

Even if a poem consists of just one simple word:

     < disingenuous >

          - - -


(unbodied poem BTW)

the poem can't help but have multiple layers. Layers are inherent
because communication is always approximate. The real challenge
is to minimize the layering.



i have a desk in total it's about 9 feet long almost a whole mahogany was slaughtered to create it. it a thing of beauty and whether or not anything of note is created on it doesn't matter. the desk is my creation. pine wouldn't cut it Wink
"pine wouldn't cut it"

I've never had a saw made of pine, but if I did, I would not expect it to cut much of anything.
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"the poem can't help but have multiple layers."

Some people write only about chickens, thus their poetry always has multiple layers in it, the problem being , that the layers lay eggs! The eggs of course are potential Layers themselves, but should you drop the eggs before they develop, then you risk scrambling you layers. Or should you turn into a rooster you risk laying your Layers. Don't even get me started on layered realty, such as split levels.

Dale

But mahogany, mahogany would cut pine. Though god-damned yellow
pine, damn, that stuff bends nails, hell, it'll even bend artistic nails.
(Technically, saws have handles which are sometimes made of pine.)

And liquid nitrogen... that might work.

"layered realty" = "condominium highrise"



And liquid nitrogen... that might work. I'd go with Bodark wood. It's like high grade steel.

layered realty= rent a part ment = deconstructionism = non-layered realty
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