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Despite the opening sentences of the US Constitution, when the Palestinians had the nerve to ask the UN to recognise them as a country, like, say, Andorra, the Americans not only blocked it, but to teach then a lesson, blocked a payment of $200 million in aid, with threats of further, worse blockages to come. Yes, this was Congress; no, it is contrary to the 2 state solution' advocated by Bush and Obama. But WTF? When did Israel get a seat on the Security Council?

If it ends in disaster --perhaps for the Israelis,-- who will stand up and say they were a poor friend to wilfull Israel?
The US will always be biased towards itself and its allies... same with any country (though sometimes there's a lot more pretension involved). Unfortunately, they are free to overreact as they see fit. Sad
Israel should be expelled from the UN and both parties told no help till an agreement is made (apart from humanitarian aid)
sanctions should be used to stop building on the west bank by Israel and Palestine should be told to shut up about having a part of Jerusalem as it's capital. easy talking from here but both parties have to make compromise. i do think the un were right to say no. i think it would have cause everyone including Palestine more trouble than it was worth. the continuation of building is a farce. it seems to me that israel is building as fast as it can in order to say we have an established settlement on the west bank
under UN resolution 194. people disposed from their homes during a conflict/war have the right to return to said home once the conflict is over, it's one of the main reasons Israel will not end the conflict. and it one of the most important points of contention for the Palestinians.
personally i think both sides are right and both sides are wrong. both are definitely unreasonable.
The whole thing is depressing. The US should be ashamed of themselves, and especially tthose who are lobbying their Congressmen to take such ludicrous acts, on the wild assumption that they are in the interest of Israel.

No-one in their right mind would think it sensible that any group of people had a right after 2000 years to go cantering back to the place tey believe they lived then, displacing the locals in the process. The spectacle of Jerusalem becoming a developer's paradise says nothing noble about this mean-spirited experiment. Despite my family ties, I become more and more pro_Palestinian., as aggravating as they sometimes are. And yes, the tragedy is, that it is all fixable....
(10-06-2011, 10:29 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]No-one in their right mind would think it sensible that any group of people had a right after 2000 years to go cantering back to the place tey believe they lived then, displacing the locals in the process.

Presumably you don't support the repossession of Londinium by the Italians then?
(10-06-2011, 01:10 PM)Touchstone Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-06-2011, 10:29 AM)abu nuwas Wrote: [ -> ]No-one in their right mind would think it sensible that any group of people had a right after 2000 years to go cantering back to the place tey believe they lived then, displacing the locals in the process.

Presumably you don't support the repossession of Londinium by the Italians then?

Indeed not. Yet I do not feel obliged to explain how some of my best friends are Italians -- why is that? I go further: I do not advocate the right of return of the Romanies to their ancestral home, in the sub-continent. I mean, it is obviously such a silly idea that it does not merit debate, right?


The only valid "right of return" is the "right" of every single person in the entire world to return to Kenya. That is, after all, where the human race was born. Everywhere else is merely somewhere our ancestors passed through at some time in their travels.

[Edit. Actually, I believe the corollary of that--given that nobody (other than the Kenyans still living in Kenya, who might legitimately say "well, you lot fucked off and abandoned your rights") has any remotely legitimate exclusive claim to any particular piece of the Earth, nobody should be allowed to prevent anybody from moving or living anywhere.]
Yes, both valid points. And the British did their best to put them into practice going to places all over the world, including, naturally, Kenya, wher many a jolly cocktail was swigged in 'Happy Valley' before all this nationalist nonsense took root. In fact, I suspect that a few people still own the odd trillion acres there. Why not, indeed? Just like Palestine, really...
what's done is indeed done. sadly it seems, Israel wants it to be a bit more done before they are done completely. Palestine thinks Israel is done more than enough and wants to do some done of it's own, sadly it doesn't have the might and the conflict keeps having to be redone.
It seems to me that any reasonable, or remotely compassionate, person, would not wish for a repeat of the Holocaust. Does the policy pursued by Israel of meting out collective punishment, a little Nazi trick, help to prevent this? Does treating Arabs as sub-humans in what they term a Jewish state, help prevent this? Does triumphalist boasting that they have the guns and the money, and there is not a damned thing the Palestinians can do, help prevent this? Does mocking the Islamist elected Hamas, while overlooking the barking mad ultra religious parties which help form Israel's policies? For the time being, no doubt. But who knows for how long? Are the Arabs, as a whole, poor? Not really: western governments are hoping that they and the Chinese will ride to the rescue of their economies. Arms? Pay enough, and you can get whatever you want.

That has always been my fear. Yes, along the way, atrocities have been committed against the Palestinians; but if the Israelis succeed in bringing about the final war they seem to seek--- I shudder. But I think I should cease this thread, as far as I am concerned, as it winds me up so much.
the final outcome could be worst thing the area has ever seen.
The Arabs are fucking the Israelis, literally. The Muslim birthrate within Israel is double the Jewish birthrate and Muslims will be a majority within as little as 20 years.

If the Israelis were smart they would be the ones pushing for the creation of an independently viable Palestinian state, so that they could eject the Muslims within their ranks. As it is, they're being overrun and they're going out of their way to prevent there being any viable outlet. Their current policy is suicidal.

[I'm not being racist here. As I've said, I believe every human being should be allowed to live wherever the fuck they want. I'm simply pointing out the short-sighted and self-defeating absurdity of the leaders of Israel. And, equally, the Muslims calling for the creation of a Palestinian state are moronic. The last thing they need is for Israel to give them what they're asking for. STFU, carry on fucking for the cause and they'll own the entire fucking country within a generation or two.]
You drag me back. Jewish percentage of population in 1900, say, what .005%? Now, 70%, with haredi people knocking out 8 kids .

As for the future, if Israel has its was, see this:

It "wind's up" any thinking person. The whole "two wrongs make right" idea is one I do not subscribe to, although I wouldn't have been against the allies giving the Jews GERMANY in 1948...

As much as it winds me up, Rob, I am anything but anti-Jewish. I think this situation which is no more than colonialism, should never have come about. But it has, and I now just hope for peace.
a question.

if the holocaust never happened. would the 1948 peace accord have even happened?
it's not an innuendo and i'm not insinuating anything. as for the Jews getting Germany, while i think it's a valid statement i also think it utterly wrong. but back to the now. Jewish people have Israel and one way or another, they will lose it. they now have a genuine enemy within. unlike Germany who created an enemy within for purely personal reasons. while it would be great to have two states. i can't see it happening.

now back to the two wrongs thing. it only takes one wrong to make a right where war is concerned. if Israel swept into Palestine and killed every Palestinian in a war, nothing would be said. Israel would claim the lad and the state of Israel would multiply. Israel could fuck ever non Jewish person out of their new country and that would be that. thankfully Israel hasn't the power or the will to do such a thing.

i do believe if it could get away with it Israel would eradicate every Palestinian who draws breath. remind you of another country?

war can have that effect.
yes, and the those who left would start all over again.
i'm on the verge of thinking if the kick israel out of the un,
it may make them think twice.

i saw on the news recently that israel will release a 1000 plus, (some who are serving life) prisoners for the return of one soldier. it just seems like israel has a need to keep the war ongoing. i can't see any reason why they wouldn't say, "you are joking aren't you" it's a one to one swap or nothing. at the very least, their pm sucks when it comes to negotiating with the enemy. i think it would have been better to just release all the Palestine prisoners and say "we don't want to fight you" it's really murky