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I was wondering what the view on this is. Should we share poems that we feel are horribly flawed? I usuually throw those in the bin, but maybe that's a bad use of workshopping.
if thats what a poet wants to do. i put a poem up that i think is okay. unless it's for example.
i have no problem a poem going up that needs lot's of work if the poet actually listens to advice and uses some of it.
if it's just a not so well thought out poem and the person is fairly new to poetry and the site then i'd suggest the mild critique forum.
work-shopping old poetry can be a good way to show newbs how to take advice. and can also give a few pointers as to how to think about what they write. jmo sadly i've put all my really bad stuff up after doing an edit of it, it's not much better but it's not utter rubbish any more Blush
Good points. Well I'll post some from the files maybe there's an idea that can be salvaged.
Those are the poems that give us the best chance at workshopping properly -- anything of mine that goes in serious critique still needs work, so far as I'm concerned. Sometimes the best advice you'll get is to ditch the entire poem but a couple of lines and rewrite, and you never know if that's going to work out. It's all fun Smile
Yeah, everything I post needs work and revision too. I just have a selection of stuff that I read and think, Oh Hell No! The last four I've posted have fallen into that category. I have been thinking though that maybe there's a good idea in there somewhere and I may not be doing myself any favors by locking them away. Though the likelihood is they mostly suck Wink
i think most of the stuff i post is done and done but...and this is a big but....i know it isn't.
if i new my poetry was beyond reproach i wouldn't be posting it in a forum for feedback (as a rule) sadly i'm not yet at that level. i do appreciate the better able poet who can post a poem that needs little or no edit.

i think both of you are right. sometimes it's the not so good poems that show us the ins and outs of poetry and feedback; how to write both and accept the last. fear is the enemy Wink
and while it's good to stick a poem in a drawer for a long time, they should be taken out now and again and put out there with an edit.

i'm also with leanne that sometimes saving a line or two is all we can do with some poems. it's like doing a heart transplant when you think of it Big Grin

hat's off to todd for putting his so called inferior poems up and shaming us Sad if i had any that i hadn't already posted i'd put them up in the same vein. the only ones i have left are very person ones, that basically belong to my partner, they're pretty shitty really but she loves em :blushes:


If I was really bold I'd post the stuff I wrote over twenty years ago, explain why it sucked, and attempt to salvage a few words...

Here's an opening pair of lines from one of my first poems to give you a sample.

the poem was titled Cause of Death

She was old and feeble
but that's not why they pushed her down the stairs.
hehe, i love it.
i instantly though of Faust, and sorry; i don't know why.
There are very few poems that are beyond redemption. Occasionally a complete stylistic or structural reworking is in order, sometimes it's as easy as changing grammar or correcting some word choices -- whatever the case, if a poem is posted in a critique forum, particularly Serious Critique, one must always be prepared for honest feedback and be willing to make changes. By the same token, comments really do need to be intended to help the poet improve the piece.
(08-08-2011, 01:41 PM)Todd Wrote: [ -> ]the poem was titled Cause of Death

She was old and feeble
but that's not why they pushed her down the stairs.

PLEASE POST THIS, TODD Beg I can't stop laughing Hysterical


Agreed, Leanne. I won't beleaguer the issue further, I simply agree agree agree.
As Leanne once said, and I concur, "A poem is never finished, and can nearly always be improved upon." Conversely, there is often gems to be mined, even in the worst poems. One thing I know for sure is that I am not a very good judge of my own work.

Dale
Your last sentence speaks for me, too. I have lots of worthless poems in my archives, I have suggested on occasion that I throw them away - but advise I've received is 'keep them' at least it shows (hopefully) how far I have travelled since I wrote them. And what if they aren't as bad as I think they are?...'I am not a very good judge of my own work'

(I too would like to read the remainder of your poem, Todd!....it may surprise and delight us)
(12-22-2011, 05:01 PM)Erthona Wrote: [ -> ]"A poem is never finished, and can nearly always be improved upon."
Perzackly. What a wise quote Wink



(12-22-2011, 05:01 PM)Erthona Wrote: [ -> ]One thing I know for sure is that I am not a very good judge of my own work.
Very few people are. That's why workshops are invaluable. We're not here to write your poem for you, but rather we're a little bit like a test audience at an advance screening, plus the market research team that collects all the data and presents it to you in a nice neat report (but we're cheaper).



(12-22-2011, 05:15 PM)grannyjill Wrote: [ -> ]I have lots of worthless poems in my archives, I have suggested on occasion that I throw them away - but advise I've received is 'keep them' at least it shows (hopefully) how far I have travelled since I wrote them. And what if they aren't as bad as I think they are?...'I am not a very good judge of my own work'
You never know. Even your old "bad" poems may have a kernel of value. Sometimes an idea isn't really ready to be fully written when you first pick up the pen -- it might need a further catalyst to bring it to fruition, but if you throw away the ingredients you're well and truly buggered Smile

Dale said;

"i'm not a very good judge of my own work"
i think that's true for most poets. the truth is many poets don't see it that way. they often think because they wrote it, they're the best judge of it being good or bad. i've always said (well not always of course) i've written two of what i would call publishable poems, the rest vary from novice to mediocre (i think) i love honest feedback and though i don't always do edits in the same week i get feedback, i guarantee that in a few months or so i'll go back over a lot of them and put them back up with an edit or as a new poem. and i agree that a poem is never finished, though some are pensioned off they've been worked that hard Big Grin
Let me see if I can dig it up somewhere. I could probably do it from memory but I would prefer that you see it in its original "glory" Wink

(12-22-2011, 02:42 PM)Aish Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2011, 01:41 PM)Todd Wrote: [ -> ]the poem was titled Cause of Death

She was old and feeble
but that's not why they pushed her down the stairs.

PLEASE POST THIS, TODD Beg I can't stop laughing Hysterical


Agreed, Leanne. I won't beleaguer the issue further, I simply agree agree agree.
You know, there was one, and this is out of thousands, one contest over at APe that was funny as well as instructional. It was a contest for the worst poem ever written. To some degree, one has to know what good poetry is to write bad poetry. Of course keeping with the poetry.com parameters it could not be more than twenty lines, but in a worst poetry contest you ignore the rules!
I mean I learned tons from writing an emo poem...well, no I didn't. I did learn they are too weak to pick up a shovel, and that as long as I am alive I will have to much energy to be an emo poet. One has to train from a very early age to get into that shape...and not perish Smile However, having gone through these two experiences, I feel I could write an even worse poem than I did for that contest (I'm still trying to figure out if I should be happy or pissed that I only got an Honorable Mention. That guy just didn't know truly bad writing when he saw it!)

Dale

PS Todd: that was nearly a week ago you said you were gonna post it, so post it already!
Dale, I have to find the damn thing. It's in an old notebook. Wink. I promise to redouble my efforts.
I may have packed the notebook in storage let me try to recreate it without fixing any of it.

Cause of Death

She was old and feeble,
but that's not why they pushed her down the stairs.

He was young and strong,
but that's not why he hung himself with an extension cord.

She knew they were in love,
but that's not why his infidelity gave her AIDS.

Death fills the void of an empty moment
and that's why boredom kills.

So what do you want to do tonight?
I don't know, what do you want to do?


So, I don't see much to save here. The story behind this poem is I pushed someone down a flight of stairs...wait that isn't it. The story was I was bored out of my mind. I'd gotten out of college, decided that I didn't like the career I was pointed at. I was working in a crap swing shift job and was home watching TV at 4:00 in the morning realizing I was in a rut. I decided to change that. The next TV ad for a career I saw I decided to pursue. So, I could be a Chef, a long-distance truck driver, a para legal...plenty of options.

The ad was for ITT technical institute. So, I moved from my small town to the nearby city, shared an apartment with friends, and started working in a warehouse loading trucks. After work, I would go ITT and study robotics. During this time one of roommates introduced me to poetry, and I started writing it in class because robotics and sautering circuit boards bored me to tears.

I had just finished this "poem" in a psychology class at ITT. I started to tune in to the instructor. He was saying if you don't love what you're doing you need to stop, and do something you love. He meant to motivate us to pour ourselves into our technical careers. I stood up in the middle of class and started walking for the door. I realized that I didn't love this. I was out of my rut, but this was in no way "the answer". I told him I agreed with him and left the school.

Thankfully, I didn't end up rutterless and everything turned out well...

Oh well, enough autobiography...it's a crap poem. Happy 2012!
Todd,

Nice story though. Smile

So why not start with

"She was old and feeble,
but that's not why they pushed her down the stairs.


And see where you end up? Maybe with a similar form/rhythmic pattern, with an end rhyme with stairs. I wouldn't try strict meter as this is too irregular, maybe break it:

"She | was old | and feeble,
but that's | not why | they pushed |
her down | the stairs.

It's kind of like those variable nursery rhyme patterns. Which doesn't mean it is an easy pattern to repeat as you show in your next stanza, which is two syllables too long.

But...

I am fairly certain,
that I could do the same that you've done here!


so it's doable.

Just an idea Smile

Dale
Not a bad idea Dale. When I was recreating this the lines (lengths and breaks) were almost causing me the most pain. If I stayed with the structure and attempted to make this again I'd probably break the lines the way you did. Those are much better breaks. My problem with the new breaks though is that they expose the first line as being much too weak of a lead in. I'd probably have to change the structure the pushing down the stairs if reworked could be a strong opener. The original seems too passive and static to me. I also find the conclusion a bit too trite. So the idea of simply free writing from the opening might be fun to try. I'll give it some thought.

Thanks
It could also be written as a line of 8 in accentual verse with rhyming couplets but that's pretty long.

She was old and feeble, but that's not why they pushed her down the stairs.

well it's a good first line for free association.

As it is now there are 8 total accents, the first three nearly demand you break it there, so that leaves five to deal with, and there is really no way to deal with that elegantly.

"xpose the first line as being much too weak of a lead in"

I don't think I agree with that, but as it stands the lines are very unbalanced.

Maybe

old and feeble were not the cause,
they push her down the stairs,

that's 4/3 almost ballad meter, but it is not in iambs. Can do a second set with end rhymes on the lines of three. So it looks like

ft rhym
4 X
3 A
4 X
3 A

to wit

Old and feeble were not the cause,
they push her down the stairs,
still, she was old and I am young,
so I don't really care.
But if you want to know the truth,
it's often plain to see.......

and off you go...

Dale
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