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http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0...cnn-topics I was reading this article about how Josef Fritzl, an Austrian man who for twenty-four years kept his daughter locked in his basement, where he repeatedly raped and even breeded with her, is now claiming, backed by a psychiatrist's report, that his behaviour stems from an abusive childhood. It made me think: are we more sympathetic (not forgiving) towards monsters - serial killers, rapists etc. - whose evil can be traced to some past trauma like parental abuse?
the courts may, society might, i'm not.
while i do believe parental abuse can be traumatic, i don't believe that once the child grows up it can't be it's own person.
we all as adults know what right and wrong are. even adults who have been abused. if the person is mentally disturbed they or someone else should have got help
I don't really see it as being as simple as that. If you're a schizophrenic for instance you might believe that getting help is a secret ploy by the anti-Christ and that it is right to kill the pregnant woman next door so she and her baby can be together in heaven. Some mental disturbances take away the choice to be your own person. But then in that situation someone else should have gotten them help like you said. Though sometimes I think it's hard to spot if somebody's that mentally unwell.
you are painted by your past,that doesn't mean you cannot take decisions in the now
A very interesting topic for discussion.
I've heard/read many a story of children subjected to horrific abuse at the hands of their care giver and in spite of their abuse turn out to be incredibly caring/loving beings. While others who have received the best of the best evolve into monsters. Who can figure?
But at what age do we stop seeing someone as the victim, no longer feeling sympathy for the abused, and switch to seeing them as the monster?

I'd hate to know what kind of a person I would have turned out to be like had my father treated me as so.
(07-08-2011, 10:02 AM)Heslopian Wrote: [ -> ]I don't really see it as being as simple as that. If you're a schizophrenic for instance you might believe that getting help is a secret ploy by the anti-Christ and that it is right to kill the pregnant woman next door so she and her baby can be together in heaven. Some mental disturbances take away the choice to be your own person. But then in that situation someone else should have gotten them help like you said. Though sometimes I think it's hard to spot if somebody's that mentally unwell.
being skitzo is an actual defined mental disorder and not necessarily a product of child abuse. in which case the child abuse would be a secondary problem.

I do not know the answer -- the whole thing is horrible..

I do, though, wonder whether, in part, what we see, is not related to a more generalised weak will. It is impossible to imagine what drives people to want to do bad things to children or rape 84 year old women; but why they go ahead and do it is another matter. Whatever your back-ground, you must know: this is not right. But of course Satan is always lurking around, saying, 'Yes, but you want to..' I doubt that the numbers have changed much over the years, but it is an inability to say 'no', which changes someone from being peculiar, to an abuser. Privately, I have no doubt, they say they cannot help themselves ---- but only because their targets are so frail: they would find they could help themselves, if, for example, some old duck produced a gun.

I do also think that while third parties, or society as a whole, may be able to explain behaviour away due to an unfortunate childhood, the one person who cannot do so, is the offender. He, or she, cannnot say 'This happened when I was five, and so I had to do this', because s/he must have had their own, more immediate thoughts and impulses. A part of me thinks they should all be put on a big boat and sunk; but the more reasonable part has not a clue as to how to do better than we are. I am constantly surprised that such people are not terrified of some big brother/uncle/aunt/dad coming and sorting them out --- and yes, I know that it is mostly a family affair.
(07-08-2011, 08:31 PM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-08-2011, 10:02 AM)Heslopian Wrote: [ -> ]I don't really see it as being as simple as that. If you're a schizophrenic for instance you might believe that getting help is a secret ploy by the anti-Christ and that it is right to kill the pregnant woman next door so she and her baby can be together in heaven. Some mental disturbances take away the choice to be your own person. But then in that situation someone else should have gotten them help like you said. Though sometimes I think it's hard to spot if somebody's that mentally unwell.

being skitzo is an actual defined mental disorder and not necessarily a product of child abuse. in which case the child abuse would be a secondary problem.

Yes but you raised the issue of mental disturbances which is why I answered it.
yeah but thats why i said they should have gotten help.

i like abu's post. the part where he says, "i did it because of what happened when i was five" doesn't work.
i believe we all (the non mental ) whether abused or not know what is right or wrong. on the other hand we have the psychopath/sociopath who could have been traumatised into being so. rightly or wrongly though, i have no sympathy for them and think putting them down would be the best and only solution.
So you admit some people can be traumatised into not knowing the difference between right or wrong but still have no sympathy for them? I'm not talking about forgiveness here, I'm talking about pity. Take a look around the world Billy; societies which endorse state execution are also notorious for oppressing their citizens. No-one has the right to take the life of another human being, not the person in jail and not their jailers either.
yes, but being traumatized doesn't negate the fact they know whats right from wrong.
and sadly no, i have no pity for any of them who murder kids or rape old people.
i'd have pity for them if the go for help before committing such crimes. but the opening post was about such monsters who commit such crimes. you yourself called them monsters Wink

kleptomania is a medical condition, yet people should still go to prison if the steal often enough. my point is, that after a few times, they should realize that if they go into shops they'll steal. they know this yet still go into shops. i have no sympathy for them. society tells us in big broad strokes of law what is and isn't proper. while we may disagree with some of them, should i break them and go to prison it would be on my own head. a sociopath knows of most laws, specially ones like don't rape, don't kill, don't molest kids. that he disregards them because he thinks himself above the law and society, to me is not an excuse. he does know that if he gets caught killing, raoping, molesting etc he'll go to prison for life. same with the psychopath, manson knew exactly which laws he was breaking, so did the austrian guy, that they may have been molested as kids is irrelevant

on your point about life taking...would you feel the same if some extremist islamists stoned your family to death?
would you feel the same if the uk were invaded, if pakistani dissidents dropped a nuke on it. if someone carved your daughter up after buggering her. if someone shove big fuck off batteries up you young sons arse after defiling him then putting him across a train track in order to destroy the evidence or for fun, maybe you wouldn't want to kill the guilty but me, i'm not that nice, i'd want them dead, in the case of killing my child in such a horrific way i'd want to rip him apart very slowly.

society does what is illegal for us to do. in some instances it even kills on our behalf, in all instances it does go as far as incarcerating someone for life.
Society does sympathize over these kinds of people, but I don't think it's right. I don't care if they don't understand right from wrong... they still commited the crime. Someone like this sick basterd who did this to his daughter does not deserve sympathy. People have also used the whole "bad childhood" excuse for years... it doesn't fly with me..

Just my opinion
(07-10-2011, 11:09 AM)Vika Wrote: [ -> ]Society does sympathize over these kinds of people, but I don't think it's right. I don't care if they don't understand right from wrong... they still commited the crime. Someone like this sick basterd who did this to his daughter does not deserve sympathy. People have also used the whole "bad childhood" excuse for years... it doesn't fly with me..

Just my opinion

great to see you posting and welcome.

i think the real loolars, those who are mentally insane etc, should still be locked away from society for good. maybe in an asylum, but locked away.
i do think most know what they're doing and just don't care, these are the ones who need to die.
(07-10-2011, 11:17 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-10-2011, 11:09 AM)Vika Wrote: [ -> ]Society does sympathize over these kinds of people, but I don't think it's right. I don't care if they don't understand right from wrong... they still commited the crime. Someone like this sick basterd who did this to his daughter does not deserve sympathy. People have also used the whole "bad childhood" excuse for years... it doesn't fly with me..

Just my opinion


great to see you posting and welcome.

i think the real loolars, those who are mentally insane etc, should still be locked away from society for good. maybe in an asylum, but locked away.
i do think most know what they're doing and just don't care, these are the ones who need to die.


Thank you Big Grin

And I couldn't agree more
(07-10-2011, 11:08 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]yes, but being traumatized doesn't negate the fact they know whats right from wrong.
and sadly no, i have no pity for any of them who murder kids or rape old people.
i'd have pity for them if the go for help before committing such crimes. but the opening post was about such monsters who commit such crimes. you yourself called them monsters Wink

Hang on a second, in my last post I said you have no sympathy for those who've been traumatised into not knowing the difference between right or wrong. You're now agreeing with that while also saying: "but being traumatized doesn't negate the fact they know whats right from wrong." You're blatantly contradicting yourself. And yes I did call them monsters, because they are, but that doesn't mean I can't pity them. Again, I'm not talking about forgiveness, I'm talking about pity.

(07-10-2011, 11:08 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]kleptomania is a medical condition, yet people should still go to prison if the steal often enough. my point is, that after a few times, they should realize that if they go into shops they'll steal. they know this yet still go into shops. i have no sympathy for them. society tells us in big broad strokes of law what is and isn't proper. while we may disagree with some of them, should i break them and go to prison it would be on my own head. a sociopath knows of most laws, specially ones like don't rape, don't kill, don't molest kids. that he disregards them because he thinks himself above the law and society, to me is not an excuse. he does know that if he gets caught killing, raoping, molesting etc he'll go to prison for life. same with the psychopath, manson knew exactly which laws he was breaking, so did the austrian guy, that they may have been molested as kids is irrelevant

I'm not saying they shouldn't go to prison. At what point did I say such a thing Billy? Don't twist my words. Killers and rapists should be locked away for as long as is possible to condone based on the nature of their crimes. Why does everything have to be so black and white with you? For the umpteenth time, I'm not talking about forgiveness, I'm talking about pity. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And how do you know a lot of our current lifers didn't seek help before committing their crimes? The man who shot John Lennon did. He repeatedly sought help for mental disorders and even tried helping others. I'm not saying he should be forgiven - what he did was unforgivable - but I think he deserves a degree of pity.

(07-10-2011, 11:08 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]on your point about life taking...would you feel the same if some extremist islamists stoned your family to death?
would you feel the same if the uk were invaded, if pakistani dissidents dropped a nuke on it. if someone carved your daughter up after buggering her. if someone shove big fuck off batteries up you young sons arse after defiling him then putting him across a train track in order to destroy the evidence or for fun, maybe you wouldn't want to kill the guilty but me, i'm not that nice, i'd want them dead, in the case of killing my child in such a horrific way i'd want to rip him apart very slowly.

If someone carved up my daughter, defiled my mother, laid my son across train tracks or whatever else of course I'd want them tortured. I'd want them to suffer in complete agony until the end of time. But I'd expect someone to hold me back and remind me that such punishment can't be dealt out in a fair and just 21st century society, where nobody has the right to cause pain for pleasure.
you should tell that to your government
My government shouldn't have to be told.
It's true, he may be a man mentally impaired by a childhood full of trauma, but the deliberation by which he did his horrible acts (he hid it well enough for many years, knew he had to hide it) means he knew well enough the implications and ramifications of what he's doing and knows right from wrong, imo. We can pity him, but at this point pity is a useless emotion, especially if you think he's warped enough to think what he's doing is okay on any level. In the end he must still pay a price, for the sake of the victim who the law must honor and protect... anything less would be a slap in her face. And if she doesn't get justice... what? Should she go out and abuse other kids to salve her feelings from her horrific abuse? Would we be "okay" with that, since its "understandable"?
(07-11-2011, 12:59 AM)Heslopian Wrote: [ -> ]Hang on a second, in my last post I said you have no sympathy for those who've been traumatised into not knowing the difference between right or wrong. You're now agreeing with that while also saying: "but being traumatized doesn't negate the fact they know whats right from wrong." You're blatantly contradicting yourself. And yes I did call them monsters, because they are, but that doesn't mean I can't pity them. Again, I'm not talking about forgiveness, I'm talking about pity.
i said i had no pity for those who commit crimes. Wink my pity goes to those who don't commit crimes and then shout woe the fuck is me.

Quote:I'm not saying they shouldn't go to prison. At what point did I say such a thing Billy? Don't twist my words. Killers and rapists should be locked away for as long as is possible to condone based on the nature of their crimes. Why does everything have to be so black and white with you? For the umpteenth time, I'm not talking about forgiveness, I'm talking about pity. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And how do you know a lot of our current lifers didn't seek help before committing their crimes? The man who shot John Lennon did. He repeatedly sought help for mental disorders and even tried helping others. I'm not saying he should be forgiven - what he did was unforgivable - but I think he deserves a degree of pity.

you say don't twist your words? i didn't jack i stated a fact relating to and reinforcing my opinion. the reinforcement is; if they people have been to court once and been spanked, they know what they did was wrong, if people see that some goes to jail for a crime they want to emulate, they know it's wrong. and again i say i have no pity for those who break the law and use child abuse as an excuse. (unless they're mentally insane, which isn't often the case )


Quote:on your point about life taking...
If someone carved up my daughter, defiled my mother, laid my son across train tracks or whatever else of course I'd want them tortured. I'd want them to suffer in complete agony until the end of time. But I'd expect someone to hold me back and remind me that such punishment can't be dealt out in a fair and just 21st century society, where nobody has the right to cause pain for pleasure.
sorry but i feel that if all parents feel the way you said you would then as parents we have a right to demand certain sentences, such as torture and death or torturing to death in some cases. i have pity for those who deserve it, people who live through abuse, often damaged in some way but prepared to stop the cycle non the less.

I don't think parents have the right to demand sentences which could be detrimental to society. Who do you think would be charged with cutting off Ian Brady's hands and tongue, torturing others to death? Human beings, like you and me. People of flesh and blood told to do what their victims did. How do you think that would affect them? Imagine if you were given the power to reduce someone to a screaming bleeding blob of flesh. You don't think that would change you in any way? Make you less William Marsland and more Charles Manson? By allowing such punishments we infest society with potential monsters, thus running the risk of more innocent people dying.
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