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For some time Moors murderer Ian Brady, who with Myra Hindley tortured and killed five children between 1963 and 1965, has been fighting for the right to die, even going on hunger strike once. At a judicial review in 2000 he said: "[...] I have to fight simply to die. I have had enough. I want nothing, my objective is to die and release myself from this once and for all. So you see my death strike is rational and pragmatic. I'm only sorry I didn't do it decades ago, and I'm eager to leave this cesspit in a coffin."
Should prisoners who've been sentenced to serve the rest of their natural life behind bars have the right to commit suicide?
ofcourse they have,as does anyone else

thethingy

(06-25-2011, 10:33 AM)Heslopian Wrote: [ -> ]For some time Moors murderer Ian Brady............

That man is the opitamy of evil, dont feel sorry for him in any way, if he really wanted to die he could have stuck a sheet round his neck at any time. But suicide is not illegal therefore there is nothing to stop you from doing it if you want to.
Actually, in most parts of the world suicide IS illegal, and so is encouraging others to suicide.

thethingy

(06-25-2011, 12:44 PM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, in most parts of the world suicide IS illegal, and so is encouraging others to suicide.

ohh, I know in the UK (prisoner in question) that its not but it did used to be.
I believe it's a grey area in the UK as to whether it's a crime to assist or encourage suicide though... by allowing it, would a judge be opening himself up to culpability?

Much better to get the cook to serve up some dodgy chicken.
assisting a person to commit suicide is illegal, committing suicide isn't. attempted suicide can get you sectioned under the mental health act.
i believe if someone is sentenced to life specially for a heinous crime such as theirs, they should be kept alive as long as possible with daily reminders of how hated they are. they should get no privileges such as tv or exercise etc. and they should have nothing in their cell they could use to top themselves.
I tend to agree, because I'm an unpleasant person -- if he wants to die, I think that's the last thing that bastard should be allowed. Why should the legal system be merciful to him? Regardless of cost, keep him alive to suffer.
normally i belive in the death sentence but in this instant and others like it, i want them to live. not as other criminals but without any privileges what ever. no tv, no outside exercise, no clothes, no bedding no bed the bare amount of calories to survive, no medical treatment except to keep them alive. and yeah i know what i suggest is inhuman, i just feel it's the least they deserve.
(06-26-2011, 09:29 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]normally i belive in the death sentence but in this instant and others like it, i want them to live. not as other criminals but without any privileges what ever. no tv, no outside exercise, no clothes, no bedding no bed the bare amount of calories to survive, no medical treatment except to keep them alive. and yeah i know what i suggest is inhuman, i just feel it's the least they deserve.

But doesn't that in a sense lower us to their level? Brady tortured children to death so justice would be to torture him for the rest of his life? That seems less like justice and more like revenge. The deprivation of his freedom until he dies is surely punishment enough. The fact he wants now to die proves that I think.

does it? i haven't killed any kids lately, how about you, (no offence meant )
deprivation of freedom doesn't mean putting you in prison, not in the uk where these two are at least. it basically take away one freedom, the right to wholly take part in society; one can still interact in many ways within society even though one is incarcerated.
you still have most of your freedoms in tact inside prison.

the prison population has it's own society and it's that that they shouldn't be allowed to partake in, they should in fact have their tongues cut out so they can't even talk to the prison guards, back to the revenge thing no punishment can be enough to be called justice in these cases. they by their own actions have stepped outside justice and as such, do not even deserve the toughest of justice which is death. they only deserve to live by their own code of horror and torture in similar conditions to their victims.

vf: the question concerns a case about british prisoners in a british jail system. which is what i replied too.

Quote:normally i believe in the death sentence but in this instant and others like it,...
when the same question is asked of yank prisoners your reply will be warranted.
What Brady did was horrible but he's a psychopath. Clinically diagnosed and, from what I've read, he had been predisposed to cruelty from a young age. There's no faking that. It's not some bullshit defence thought up after the fact to get him off. He was born with a psychological impairment (or suffered something at a very young age which retarded him emotionally). In that sense he is a victim in the same way someone with cerebral palsy is a victim.

What he did was to my mind more forgiveable than the actions of a drug dealer or a drunk driver who kills--rational people who have chosen to hurt others. Through no fault of his own he's too dangerous to ever be let out, but I don't think it would be any fairer to subject him to cruel and unusual punishment than it would be to punish all mentally and physically handicapped people.

As for his right to die? While I could perhaps accept normal prisoners sentenced to long periods of imprisonment making that decision of their own free will, I don't think mentally incapacitated prisoners can do so, at least not on their own. At the very least the next of kin should be required to agree.
(06-26-2011, 04:38 PM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]does it? i haven't killed any kids lately, how about you, (no offence meant )
deprivation of freedom doesn't mean putting you in prison, not in the uk where these two are at least. it basically take away one freedom, the right to wholly take part in society; one can still interact in many ways within society even though one is incarcerated.
you still have most of your freedoms in tact inside prison.

the prison population has it's own society and it's that that they shouldn't be allowed to partake in, they should in fact have their tongues cut out so they can't even talk to the prison guards, back to the revenge thing no punishment can be enough to be called justice in these cases. they by their own actions have stepped outside justice and as such, do not even deserve the toughest of justice which is death. they only deserve to live by their own code of horror and torture in similar conditions to their victims.

vf: the question concerns a case about british prisoners in a british jail system. which is what i replied too.

Quote:normally i believe in the death sentence but in this instant and others like it,...
when the same question is asked of yank prisoners your reply will be warranted.

I doubt Brady is allowed much time to mingle among other prisoners and conduct a social life. He'd be torn to shreds by the other inmates if put in a normal prison.
You say he stepped outside the bounds of justice. Fine, I agree. He moved beyond the bounds of justice when he started killing kids. But that doesn't mean we should follow him. As good, rational people we should stay behind the line, otherwise society would descend into moral chaos.
All this talk of cutting out his tongue, what does it achieve? Those children are still dead, their surviving families still live in agony. The only purpose of such torture would be personal pleasure, in the same way Brady took personal pleasure in raping and torturing his victims.

(06-27-2011, 08:57 AM)Touchstone Wrote: [ -> ]What Brady did was horrible but he's a psychopath. Clinically diagnosed and, from what I've read, he had been predisposed to cruelty from a young age. There's no faking that. It's not some bullshit defence thought up after the fact to get him off. He was born with a psychological impairment (or suffered something at a very young age which retarded him emotionally). In that sense he is a victim in the same way someone with cerebral palsy is a victim.

What he did was to my mind more forgiveable than the actions of a drug dealer or a drunk driver who kills--rational people who have chosen to hurt others. Through no fault of his own he's too dangerous to ever be let out, but I don't think it would be any fairer to subject him to cruel and unusual punishment than it would be to punish all mentally and physically handicapped people.

As for his right to die? While I could perhaps accept normal prisoners sentenced to long periods of imprisonment making that decision of their own free will, I don't think mentally incapacitated prisoners can do so, at least not on their own. At the very least the next of kin should be required to agree.
good points in the 1st and last paragraph, though i can't agree on with the 2nd,

i would be devastated, should a drunk kill my child with a car but i would be be much so should brady or bulger do what they did and how they did to my kid.
while he has a mental illness, all mental cases don't commit wanton murder in such a way as he hindley did. for me the man needs to live a long and tortuous life.

(06-27-2011, 11:02 AM)Heslopian Wrote: [ -> ]I doubt Brady is allowed much time to mingle among other prisoners and conduct a social life. He'd be torn to shreds by the other inmates if put in a normal prison.
You say he stepped outside the bounds of justice. Fine, I agree. He moved beyond the bounds of justice when he started killing kids. But that doesn't mean we should follow him. As good, rational people we should stay behind the line, otherwise society would descend into moral chaos.
All this talk of cutting out his tongue, what does it achieve? Those children are still dead, their surviving families still live in agony. The only purpose of such torture would be personal pleasure, in the same way Brady took personal pleasure in raping and torturing his victims.
people like brady and his actions stop us being good rational people. it may not for some but it does for me. in this instance i take the meaning of ones life for a death to the extreme. he really should pay with his life. paying with his death just isn't good enough

So you're saying we should become like Brady? You talk about cutting out tongues and stripping people naked but in all honesty Billy if you could I don't think you'd ever instil such punishments. You seem like a warm and loving guy, not a monster like Brady.
no jack you're the one saying that.

i'm saying i won't kill kids and that he should pay for his acts with his life. all of it in as harsh a condition as possible without violating the human rights charter. or even with violation of them. as for what i'm like, it's irrelevant to my views. though you are wrong as to me instilling or carring out such punishment, i could do it without a 2nd thought. that said, i would never harm his kids if had any.
And cutting out tongues isn't a violation of the human rights charter? In my opinion, by instilling the tortures you describe we become like Brady. He caused intense pain for his own pleasure. We'd be doing the same. We'd be torturing for pleasure. How does that make us any better than him? I think your views are coloured slightly by the fact his victims were children. What if he prayed on men and women? Would that lessen the intensity of your revenge?
I also said;
or even with violation of them.

kids do colour the equation slightly but i feel the same about mason and the adults he killed (not including the foetus)
i am seriously dismayed to think those who want to torture brady are classed as bad as he was.
A, his victims had committed no crime.
b, his victims weren't psychopaths,
c, his victims had committed no crime.
d, death would be too easy a way out.

or would yoiu have us treat him with respect, feed him a highly nutritious meal three times a day, give him a tv and playstation, spend money on him for clothes and extra protection when he goes out for exercise. like we do every other prisoner.

as for him being killed. or attacked. he has it cushier than most cons who are in for stealing cars or doing a bit of thievery.
i still stand by the cutting his tongue out, and hindley's who was writing to who ever listened and telling them she's a good girl now.
and i don't think of it as revenge. i think he should at least know some of the suffering his victims felt so he contemplate why he's where he is.
I think he should be given a bed, a reasonable diet and some form of entertainment to stave off madness. That doesn't mean I think we should spend money buying him Jimmy Choo shoes and food from the Savoy. A and C in the reasons you put forth to justify torture are the same. I'm not trying to justify his actions Billy. Of course if we did cut his tongue out he'd have been asking for it, but that doesn't mean we should do it. Think of it how you like but causing intense physical and psychological pain to someone like Brady is revenge; you're doing it to please yourself, not to help anyone. I don't want to live in a world where the authorities can exact such brutality on criminals under the guise of justice. Otherwise where does it end? We’ll end up back in the dark ages where you could be executed for stealing a loaf of bread.
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