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Over the years I've seen/ heard many people excusing their bad word choices or stilted grammar by saying that "the form doesn't allow for anything else".  

1. You chose the form in the first place.  Nobody is forcing you to use it.

2. There are around 170,000 official words in English.  This is growing all the time and of course, there are innumerable proper nouns, vernacular terms, portmanteaux and just plain made-up words.  If you can't fill 14 lines (that's just 140 syllables of iambic pentameter) then either you need to expand your vocabulary or you need to stop categorising words as "poetic" and "not poetic".

3. If you can't find a word to rhyme, choose a different word to rhyme with.  Poets do this all the time. It might be a little frustrating when you thought you had the perfect line and need to change it, but it's much better than destroying it altogether by rhyming it with something that makes zero sense.  

4. For most of the common forms, there are exercises in the Poetry Practice forum.  You may post within the already existing threads for feedback on your technique and adherence to form.

5. If you genuinely want to write with a certain form, then take people's criticism and work with it.  If you don't, just stop posting that form in the workshops because after a while, it's basically spam.
To me, writing in any traditional style or form only has allusive value. But I'm landlocked in America so maybe that's only a valid point here.
Don't start making valid points now. Why spoil your reputation?
Leanne, I think we should all spend 50 years studying and practicing the most sophisticated examples of poetic voice and verse methods and then get drunk for ten years and then try our best to write like Bukowski, or Maya Angelou if we happen to be anything other than Rilke or white. And if we don't like drugs and the French, just write right after the 50 years of study and skip the decade of drunkenness.
I don't have 50 years to waste. 10 years of drunkenness sounds do-able though.
(06-25-2017, 05:39 AM)rowens Wrote: [ -> ]To me, writing in any traditional style or form only has allusive value. But I'm landlocked in America so maybe that's only a valid point here.

what do you mean by "allusive value" in this context?
In this context I mean you would only use a form to allude to something. But that's just me. For instance: I'd rhyme to either refer to a certain level of demon(s) in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Neil Gaiman's The Sandman or witches in William Shakespeare's Macbeth, but I wouldn't bother telling anyone about it, I'd just expect everybody to get it or go to Africa or Alaska or disappear into Mexico.
Or alternatively, it might mean that you know in passing what a form is and have a vague acquaintance with how to do it, but you consider actual practice of such a thing to be vulgar and beneath you.
(06-25-2017, 06:11 AM)rowens Wrote: [ -> ]In this context I mean you would only use a form to allude to something. But that's just me. For instance: I'd rhyme to either refer to a certain level of demon(s) in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Neil Gaiman's The Sandman or witches in William Shakespeare's Macbeth, but I wouldn't bother telling anyone about it, I'd just expect everybody to get it or go to Africa or Alaska or disappear into Mexico.

i see, so you mean writing in a traditional form is only alluding to past greatness, and kind of piggyback on that. do you not think there is something intrinsically valuable about the form?
As to Leanne's point: it always takes 50 years to learn how to write good poetry, and 50 years afterwards to be read properly. Getting drunk for ten years or getting a degree in literature saves time, and clears up everything a lot simplier. Both in writing well and reading well.
Bullshit.
I think there is only value in form when using that form to create a tone or mood or aesthetic which in some way can't help but being related to the way the form has been used in the past. Unless you write in the form so well that all other poems written in that form before you are either forgotten or acknowledged only as a footnote to you.
(06-25-2017, 06:24 AM)rowens Wrote: [ -> ]I think there is only value in form when using that form to create a tone or mood or aesthetic which in some way can't help but being related to the way the form has been used in the past. Unless you write in the form so well that all other poems written in that form before you are either forgotten or acknowledged only as a footnote to you.

um, i think you are being a bit either/or about it. i agree that some forms are novel and in many ways unrepeatable (i am thinking of Bacon--in the art world god forbid you should copy his style or technique or you shall be forever known as the poor man's Bacon); however, this surely cannot be said of all other forms, or, indeed, when it comes to the basics. playing an Am and Em chord has an intrinsically melancholic quality. If you listen to 'ode to joy' and feel depressed then something's gone wrong. as far as i can see, being proficient in a form only means you have the luxury of being creative with it. which i think can only be a good and valuable thing.

and just a PS. i have read beat poetry since i was like 14, jack, allen, greg, gary, even jim... and i have to say that reading you, be it poetry or comment, certainly makes me think of a better poem, by any of them, more than any good sonnet i have read on here makes me think of shakespeare.
We're living in a multimedia context. If you put ode to joy over a suicide or rape scene in a movie it's going to change ode to joy. But the fact that ode to joy is known to be a joyous song adds to the horror. But since such things as that have been done to death, there needs to be a new way. Either people are going to recognize these cultural cues/or they're not. So I don't think we're arguing on anything. I'm just making broad statements that I tend to believe that just goes along with me just talking, and like Tan Lin says, I had to go through my bookshelf a while to find a good quote, ''After a certain point, there are no more things to be said, talking is a nonsensical covering for the rude silence that cannot be concealed.'' I used that quote at the beginning of a self-published book years ago that I never published.

I don't like beat poetry.
Wow. Over reaction. I find rowens to be persuasive. This is poetry discussion. It almost seems like Rowens is arguing Leanes point, but in a more universal sense.

Leanne: Don't excuse your shit writing on form you chose. You've chosen the form, you're responsible for making it work.

Rowens: The forms don't make the poem, the poet does. Using classical forms in poetry is so overdone it's practically cliche.


Honesty, your points are similar. The form doesn't make the poem/you can't blame the form for the poem. Subtle difference, maybe, but the base argument is almost the same. It's the poets responsibility to make the poem good.
you call it what you wish, when you take it with some of his recent postings; i call it trolling, i see i went over the top but my view hasn't changed.
and sorry but i see those two lines differently. one is helpful the other not so much, one one tries to show that editing and working the poem is of essence and one is saying don't fucking bother in the first place. but fair comment by you i shall remove my post now.
Leanne, you can't state the obvious and get everybody to agree with you just because you are a consensus seeking tall poppy avoiding Aussie. So I'll be contrarian and help you here.
The form has everything to do with word choice. I can't fit "Mpumalangwan iron ore" in a haiku.
No you can't, but you could fit "Josh Frydenberg's dick".
I wasn't attacking Leanne's point. My motive was personal elaboration. Not agreement or attack. Just the way I really feel about it.
i'll use the olde adage that good poetry is good poetry, whether it be form or other. i agree with the OP that should you try to use it, try to use it as best you can with a frame of mind that allows you to improve using feedback given you. to simply say it's cliched is to dismiss the chance of writing or reading what could be good poetry out of hand. it's a bit like saying rock or soul music doesn't cut it for good music.
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