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you're all writers, what do you all make of this?

[Image: FT_15.11.19_speechEurope.png]
(12-05-2015, 03:06 PM)shemthepenman Wrote: [ -> ]you're all writers, what do you all make of this?

[Image: FT_15.11.19_speechEurope.png]

Everybody lies......
It would be nice to think the U.S. is the bastion of free speech.

The problem with the poll is that it lumps the people who support
free speech regardless of viewpoint with the ones who think they should
be able to keep voicing their racist/homophobic/xenophobic opinions,
but wouldn't mind at all if left-wing and minority speech was suppressed.
(12-05-2015, 03:06 PM)shemthepenman Wrote: [ -> ]you're all writers, what do you all make of this?

[Image: FT_15.11.19_speechEurope.png]

I'm sure there are more legitimate quotes but I've always liked this from a film called The American President:

Quote:America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours".

So for many of us it's scary when even a quarter of those polled feel the government should regulate our right to express any opinion.

This is not to deny that a frightening percentage of this country is indeed sincerely racist, regardless of what race they are, and that a frightening percentage believe that their own religion is superior to all others, regardless of what their religion is.

So yeah, we're screwed up, I just don't think this is the poll that shows it.
And oh those Germans...
Taking their history of repression and distorting its lessons in a way that reinforces that same history.
what is deemed offensive, can i tell peoples of all races fuck off? if not i'm against it. what if it's offensive to everyone?

polls like this are too easy to manipulate. they can spin it any way they wish. hate speech; it seems little has been done about it so far.
i think some things shuldn't be allowed and some should, depending on the context.
(12-05-2015, 03:06 PM)shemthepenman Wrote: [ -> ]you're all writers, what do you all make of this?

[Image: FT_15.11.19_speechEurope.png]

I think it has something to do with World War Two and the Jersey Shore. Plus, I mean, dropping the n-bomb is fun. Try it, you might like it. I think people are just too closed minded about the proper use of racial slurs.

we aren't allowed to fly the confederate flag any more, so I mean, I think we got the whole racism thing solved. Still waiting for Obama to turn white and stop stinking, though... I voted for him twice expecting this to happen, needless to say, I am dissapoint.

my feelings on racism is that we are so hung up on not being racist that we can't be honest. Its a joke. I ain't got time for no reach-around love everyone bs. Some people deserve to be hated, I act accordingly


It's tough to say all Muslims are wrong, evil, whatever... but, I guarantee you if I see 12 of those hooded mother fuckers walking around at some crowed place I'm going to alert someone. Profile.
(12-06-2015, 08:23 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]what is deemed offensive, can i tell peoples of all races fuck off? if not i'm against it. what if it's offensive to everyone?

polls like this are too easy to manipulate.  they can spin it any way they wish. hate speech; it seems little has been done about it so far.
i think some things shouldn't be allowed and some should, depending on the context(bold added by ray).

Yeah, well, that's why I'm for universal freedom of speech. Who gets to decide the context?
Whoever's in power gets to decide. Today that might be a government you agree with,
tomorrow it might not. If the Neo-Nazis want to say they hate Jews, that should be their right.
Statements like this cannot be countered by suppression; that's the resort of repressive governments,
not democracies.  Speech like this needs to be countered by the same power that allowed those
statements to be aired in the first place: Free Speech.
(12-06-2015, 12:41 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-06-2015, 08:23 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]what is deemed offensive, can i tell peoples of all races fuck off? if not i'm against it. what if it's offensive to everyone?

polls like this are too easy to manipulate.  they can spin it any way they wish. hate speech; it seems little has been done about it so far.
i think some things shouldn't be allowed and some should, depending on the context(bold added by ray).

Yeah, well, that's why I'm for universal freedom of speech. Who gets to decide the context?
Whoever's in power gets to decide. Today that might be a government you agree with,
tomorrow it might not. If the Neo-Nazis want to say they hate Jews, that should be their right.
Statements like this cannot be countered by suppression; that's the resort of repressive governments,
not democracies.  Speech like this needs to be countered by the same power that allowed those
statements to be aired in the first place: Free Speech.

Resolutely stating the obvious, what Americans perhaps worry about more, and Europeans less (or pretend to?) is that there are no windows into souls.  That is, everyone can lie about how he feels, and - if he's sane - often does.

There may be a legitimate (and justicable?) bright line at shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, but the supposedly bright line at "fighting words" is bunk.  If someone wants to fight someone else (including for being a member of a group he hates), he can pretend anything said (or any action at all, if "symbolic speech" is allowed) constitutes "fighting words."  I say "Potato," you say "You're racist against the Irish!" and take a swing at me.  Don't believe it?  Check out the news from American universities - the neologism is "cry-bullies."

The crowded theater is the only bright line, and it's a very limited and artificial (though plausible) case.  Aside from that, everyone's required to let anyone else shout the vilest personal or group insults in his face.  When he takes a swing or picks up a rock, though... well, Americans have an Amendment for that.  Might explain part of the difference in responses.
(12-06-2015, 09:41 AM)Qdeathstar Wrote: [ -> ]... we aren't allowed to fly the confederate flag any more...

Actually you are. You can fly it in your yard, hook it to your car antenna...  any display of
the "Stars and Bars" on private property is protected as a right of free speech.

What has been prohibited (in most localities of the U.S.) is the display of that symbol on public
property (with some exceptions due to its historical significance).

I don't want it displayed on my public property because it's the symbol of a movement that
supported slavery and committed acts of treason against United States of America.

Quite a few of my neighbors down here in good-old-boy Texas think differently. They got their
way for many years, now it's my turn.  Tongue
Ray
(12-06-2015, 01:08 PM)rayheinrich Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-06-2015, 09:41 AM)Qdeathstar Wrote: [ -> ]... we aren't allowed to fly the confederate flag any more...

Actually you are. You can fly it in your yard, hook it to your car antenna...  any display of
the "Stars and Bars" on private property is protected as a right of free speech.

What has been prohibited (in most localities of the U.S.) is the display of that symbol on public
property (with some exceptions due to its historical significance).

I don't want it displayed on my public property because it's the symbol of a movement that
supported slavery and committed acts of treason against United States of America.

Quite a few of my neighbors down here in good-old-boy Texas think differently. They got their
way for many years, now it's my turn.  Tongue
Ray

Of course. And you can shoot someone in the head. Thank you for your clarification.


I'm curious if you've ever heard of the term company store and if you differientate early industrialism from slavery, or if you differientate either of those scenarios from the scores of illegal immigrants that swarm into the country by the 100s in the back of 140 degree trucks so they can work in 120 degree fields for three dollars an hour, while they are chastised as gun toting thugs so you can get your head of lettuce for 3.59?

There is no difference. We've all just decided to feel like we've done something. A couple of photoops for the politicians. Nothing more. Until it turns terminator, the world will always crave cheap labor and will create some moral excuse to obtain it. Stop pretending. Stop pretending getting rid of symbols solves problems. Action solves problems.
shots fired

just mercedes

In NZ we have a certain amount of free speech - it stops short of personal invective though, which is actionable both criminally and through the civil courts. Basically, you can't tell lies about someone or something without repercussions. USA seems to have open slather, and I respond really badly to the bellicose bullying that a lot of American media seems to be. Belligerent. Hate crimes we call them.
@Qdeathstar:

Yes, well,  I sort of agree with you on some of those points.

So, if it doesn't matter to you, I think it would be a good idea to get rid of overt slavery
and those pesky racist symbols just to get a bit ahead of the game. Smile

And, actually, there are some quite conclusive scientific studies that say symbols actually
matter a whole lot.

And since I'm a wanna-be writer, I'm inclined to believe that words (symbols if you will)
actually do matter as well; but that's probably just bias on my part. Smile
Ray


P.S.
Two events that may be a bit pertinent to free speech (symbolically at least):

1. Beginning January 1, 2016 we Texans are going to be able to legally carry guns in public view.
    (I, personally, believe God intended for Texans to carry six-shooters in holsters on their hips.)

The only thing I think this will change, is that there will be more armed robberies of people carrying
$700 handguns in plain view. Consider: Yours is in your holster when the thief comes up with his drawn.
I believe the invitation to "Let's fight this out fair and square" will usually be declined. Smile

2. Beginning on September 1, 2016, Texas' public four year universities must allow concealed
    carry on campuses (so post-graduate Math students won't be packing six-shooters openly as yet).

The only thing I think this will change, since 64% of firearm deaths in the U.S. (2013 statistics) are suicides,
is that more students will shoot themselves. (Out of 2474 of the 4 year college campuses in the U.S.,
13 have actually had someone kill someone else with a gun [0.5%]. About 80% [or so, statistics vary
as there has been such contention/and outright failure to report the actual numbers] have had suicides
involving guns).

Though I can't help thinking that those drunken fraternity parties will get a lot more interesting. Smile



(12-06-2015, 02:08 PM)just mercedes Wrote: [ -> ]In NZ we have a certain amount of free speech - it stops short of personal invective though, which is actionable both criminally and through the civil courts. Basically, you can't tell lies about someone or something without repercussions. USA seems to have open slather, and I respond really badly to the bellicose bullying that a lot of American media seems to be. Belligerent. Hate crimes we call them.

I'm not sure about the USA, but Texans have been known to openly slather (usually
barbecue) often. As far as slander goes, yes, pretty wild-west.
If you are a public figure, it's even worse, anything goes. Even written stories, with personal
eye-witness accounts of you having sex with goats (actual story written about a politician)
are hard to pursue in the courts. Smile

The politician, after a few years, actually won the court battle; but only against the publication which
had gone out of business. Both the editor and the eye-witness each claimed the other was responsible
for making the story up.

Unfortunately, for the politician, the court case and the salacious story caused reputable publications
to have a look into his personal life and it was discovered that he had a predilection for under-age girls.
No convictions or anything, just large payments to various parents.
some interesting thoughts.
whereas it is true that it doesn't separate the racists–who would probably limit freedom of speech if the question were specifically different–from those genuinely concerned about freedom of speech, it does, however, indicate unambiguously the majority of people either are not concerned with, or do not understand the implications of, limiting it. and, despite the somewhat tongue in cheek title of this post, it is less 'well done 67% of americans' and more 'what the fuck are the 49% of europeans thinking!' and germany! 70%! i mean, if there was a country that one would have thought would have learnt a lesson or two from the not too distant past, stick a pin in germany.
you see, what i just wrote there, about the germans, if 49% of europeans had their way i could be locked up! if 70% of germans had their way, i could be gassed.

what books will we be burning today? i vote darwin's 'on the origin of species'. what we'll lose in scientific understanding of the natural world, genetics, medicine, biology, evolution, etc. we'll more than make up for in spared religious sentiment! i mean, if that's not progress, well, i just don't know what is.

"well, three things. firstly to make the point that a symbol, be it an icon or a flag or whatever, is only as worthy of respect as the values of the people that appropriate it. secondly, that if a symbol goes out into the world, perhaps into places where it's not understood or wanted or valued, you shouldn't be too upset if it takes on a shape that you don't recognise as your own. and thirdly, that if you attempt to apply limits to freedom of expression, either through legislation or intimidation or threats, what will then happen is that reasonable people, often against their own better judgement, will feel obliged to test those limits, by going into areas they don't feel entirely comfortable with."

–Stewart Lee