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(09-01-2013, 02:04 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]The page blowing in the wind comes to mind as an example; this should be the longest line in the poem, stretching, "blowing" out to the margin. Long lines are fast and windy, and give the reader the Impression that the poet was swept away in a breeze of emotions, the vehicle of the muse, the oracle, if you will. A short line is slow and should a be compact poignancy that pacts a punch. Select your arsenal and arrange your weapons in accordance to their delivery.

(ahem) While not axiomatic, I believe the current general consensus is that short lines are faster and lighter while longer lines are slower and more somber.
(09-01-2013, 02:43 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:32 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:04 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]The page blowing in the wind comes to mind as an example; this should be the longest line in the poem, stretching, "blowing" out to the margin. Long lines are fast and windy, and give the reader the Impression that the poet was swept away in a breeze of emotions, the vehicle of the muse, the oracle, if you will. A short line is slow and should a be compact poignancy that pacts a punch. Select your arsenal and arrange your weapons in accordance to their delivery.

(ahem) While not axiomatic, I believe the current general consensus is that short lines are faster and lighter while longer lines are slower and more somber.

If one line is one breath, then you must read through a long line more quickly, or you will run out of breath.
Of course a short line is over sooner, but a series of sort line is full of pauses; if the whole series were combined into one line, would it not run on, and leave you out of breath? And what is terse verse if not condensed language in slow, measured, yet economic delivery?

It is an effect I rarely use as it bores me so I am not that interested in defending one view point or another.

I think the line as a breath is more one line of ip is the equivalent of one average breath, shorter lines get more lines forced into the same space.

Anyway, like I said, I believe the current consensus is that shorter lines quicken the pace and longer lines slow it down but I have never really investigated the cause much myself. I prefer, as I am sure you are aware, using natural meter for those effects and letting the line end on the best word for emphasis (hopefully pointing back to the central metaphor) Wink
(09-01-2013, 03:00 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:49 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:43 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]If one line is one breath, then you must read through a long line more quickly, or you will run out of breath.
Of course a short line is over sooner, but a series of sort line is full of pauses; if the whole series were combined into one line, would it not run on, and leave you out of breath? And what is terse verse if not condensed language in slow, measured, yet economic delivery?

It is an effect I rarely use as it bores me so I am not that interested in defending one view point or another.

I think the line as a breath is more one line of ip is the equivalent of one average breath, shorter lines get more lines forced into the same space.

Anyway, like I said, I believe the current consensus is that shorter lines quicken the pace and longer lines slow it down but I have never really investigated the cause much myself. I prefer, as I am sure you are aware, using natural meter for those effects and letting the line end on the best word for emphasis (hopefully pointing back to the central metaphor) Wink

Oh, c'mon milo! Where is your spirit of rebellion?Wink
I dunno as a songwriter and lyricist, I know long lines must be sung fast, and short lines are often full of rests and staccato bursts. Anything beyond the realm of the lyric is beyond me.

I think the idea of line lengths would be a great topic for discussion but we should probably continue it in the discussion forum, /not/ in this poor poet's poem thread!!

Please stick to the poem guys

/mod
(09-01-2013, 03:11 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 03:07 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 03:00 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, c'mon milo! Where is your spirit of rebellion?Wink
I dunno as a songwriter and lyricist, I know long lines must be sung fast, and short lines are often full of rests and staccato bursts. Anything beyond the realm of the lyric is beyond me.

I think the idea of line lengths would be a great topic for discussion but we should probably continue it in the discussion forum, /not/ in this poor poet's poem thread!!

Please stick to the poem guys

/mod

Great idea! Can you move the posts so we can get some input from our fellow poets?

done.
(09-01-2013, 03:00 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:49 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:43 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]If one line is one breath, then you must read through a long line more quickly, or you will run out of breath.
Of course a short line is over sooner, but a series of sort line is full of pauses; if the whole series were combined into one line, would it not run on, and leave you out of breath? And what is terse verse if not condensed language in slow, measured, yet economic delivery?

It is an effect I rarely use as it bores me so I am not that interested in defending one view point or another.

I think the line as a breath is more one line of ip is the equivalent of one average breath, shorter lines get more lines forced into the same space.

Anyway, like I said, I believe the current consensus is that shorter lines quicken the pace and longer lines slow it down but I have never really investigated the cause much myself. I prefer, as I am sure you are aware, using natural meter for those effects and letting the line end on the best word for emphasis (hopefully pointing back to the central metaphor) Wink

Oh, c'mon milo! Where is your spirit of rebellion?Wink
I dunno as a songwriter and lyricist, I know long lines must be sung fast /to fit the measure/, and short lines are often full of rests and staccato bursts. Anything beyond the realm of the lyric is beyond me.

alright, continuing, I think because songs have a specific number of beats per measure, regardless of what would happen with natural meter short lines will be stretched (slowed) and long lines will be rushed.

In poetry it is different.

Of course in formal structures short lines are quicker (tetrameter or trimeter compared to pentameter or hexameter) just due to the beats. I think generally, this is where most of my pace/length comes from as I tend to compose with a thought toward how many beats in the line. Read through a tetrametric sonnet and you will definitely notice the haste.

(terse verse, btw, is a 2 word rhyming "poem", like fellow-hello!)
(09-01-2013, 03:26 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]I suppose tetrameter is quick and bouncy, light. But we were talking about free-verse, where the movement is much more difficult to control.

I was going to segregate according to that but I am not a big believer in "free verse means I get to pretend meter doesn't exist". Good free verse acknowledges meter and still uses it for effect but also uses the variation of meter as an additional tool. That being said, I figure the overall effects are the same, just more open to the control of the writer.
(09-01-2013, 03:31 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]Terse verse, ha! I was thinking of tec's definition.

yah, we let him get away with that but it is not the actual definition. I am going to start referring to everything he writes as terse verse and see if he can prove me wrong.
(09-01-2013, 03:36 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 03:30 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 03:26 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]I suppose tetrameter is quick and bouncy, light. But we were talking about free-verse, where the movement is much more difficult to control.

I was going to segregate according to that but I am not a big believer in "free verse means I get to pretend meter doesn't exist". Good free verse acknowledges meter and still uses it for effect but also uses the variation of meter as an additional tool. That being said, I figure the overall effects are the same, just more open to the control of the writer.

Right. Of course. That's why it's more difficult. It's like playing jazz versus blues.

So how would a mostly iambic line measure against an anapest line, so forth. I think if you have the same amount of natural stresses, or "beats", but with more unstressed syllables between them, it would speed up the recital, like playing 16th notes.

anapests quicken the pace. Especially with the same number of /words/.

I believe I posted a couple anapestic sonnets here as well as an anapestic villanelle and an anapestic teza rima and you can definitely feel the quickened pace.

A friend of mine wrote the same (essentially) poet as both anapestic and iambic, I will hunt it down and post it later.
You can get short lines to read quickly or slowly. The same is true with any line. And you can modulate the speed of line even it's written in meter. Though in general, the number of words and syllables is highly related to the speed of the line. Fewer words and syllables are quicker. Still readers can read line speed dramatically different.

You really have to look at poems and see how the line changes with different breaks, rhyming, punctuation, stress relations, alliteration, etc. Examples are a must to really discuss this topic.
Here it is:

Duck, Duck, Goose

Gene speaks of his geese and his ducks with his fists,
with his fingers tucked deep into signs. I can spell
out each letter, not words; I'm too rusty for this.
I don't even know "rusty." "Slow down, I can't tell
what you're saying." He honks his impatience. One hand
does a flip at his waist while his left is a beak,
but the whole is so quick that I can't understand--
like a language of moths beating bulbs till they break.

Slow it down. Slow it down. And he finally does--
turns and points to the door, to the yard where the birds
always squabbled with bites over corn in the dust.
But the ducks are all silent. The grasses are fuzzed
like a pillow exploded. I, too, lose my words
at the sight of their white now stained redder than rust.

Julie Carter

Duck duck goose
Gene speaks of geese, of ducks, with quick sign fists
and I must beg him slow his silent speech
to match my rusty intellect. He flips
his left hand at his waist, a hinged hand beak
made of his right, his fingers wild and mute
in words like moth-heads beating on hot bulbs.
I cannot understand. A door leads out
to backyard pastures where the golden bulk
of corn that made ducks squabble lies in lines
uneaten, framed by feathers. All Gene's birds
lie, too, like shredded pillows on the lawn
in crimson cases, laundry left undone.

-Julie Carter

(09-01-2013, 03:44 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 03:39 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 03:36 AM)trueenigma Wrote: [ -> ]Right. Of course. That's why it's more difficult. It's like playing jazz versus blues.

So how would a mostly iambic line measure against an anapest line, so forth. I think if you have the same amount of natural stresses, or "beats", but with more unstressed syllables between them, it would speed up the recital, like playing 16th notes.

anapests quicken the pace. Especially with the same number of /words/.

I believe I posted a couple anapestic sonnets here as well as an anapestic villanelle and an anapestic teza rima and you can definitely feel the quickened pace.

A friend of mine wrote the same (essentially) poet as both anapestic and iambic, I will hunt it down and post it later.

Well then, therein lies my point. A tetrameter line is "longer" and faster with anapests than with iambs. More beats to the same measure.

that is the nature of anapests, not the nature of line length. It is actually the same number of beats, and takes the same time to say but feels faster due to there being more actualy syllables and usually more words as well in the same space of time.
Duck, Duck, Goose

Gene speaks of his geese and his ducks with his fists,
with his fingers tucked deep into signs. I can spell
out each letter, not words; I'm too rusty for this.
I don't even know "rusty." "Slow down, I can't tell
what you're saying." He honks his impatience. One hand
does a flip at his waist while his left is a beak,
but the whole is so quick that I can't understand--
like a language of moths beating bulbs till they break.

Slow it down. Slow it down. And he finally does--
turns and points to the door, to the yard where the birds
always squabbled with bites over corn in the dust.
But the ducks are all silent. The grasses are fuzzed
like a pillow exploded. I, too, lose my words
at the sight of their white now stained redder than rust.

Julie Carter

Duck duck goose

Gene speaks of geese, of ducks, with quick sign fists
and I must beg him slow his silent speech
to match my rusty intellect. He flips
his left hand at his waist, a hinged hand beak
made of his right, his fingers wild and mute
in words like moth-heads beating on hot bulbs.
I cannot understand. A door leads out
to backyard pastures where the golden bulk
of corn that made ducks squabble lies in lines
uneaten, framed by feathers. All Gene's birds
lie, too, like shredded pillows on the lawn
in crimson cases, laundry left undone.

-Julie Carter

Which is quicker? I couldn't tell and really would have to record myself and time it. The first is tetrameter and second pentameter, but the first has more syllables.

Still these versions can be used as good illustration of how within meter, line speed varies. Looking at the first version


but the whole is so quick that I can't understand--
very fast line
like a language of moths beating bulbs till they break.
this is slower with a break in the pure anapestic tetrameter.

Slow it down. Slow it down. And he finally does--
The sentence breaks slow me a little.

Actually those three lines are a really nice use of meter with variation and how it reinforces the meaning of the poem.
(09-01-2013, 02:49 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]I think the line as a breath is more one line of ip is the equivalent of one average breath, shorter lines get more lines forced into the same space.
what happens if you have asthmaHuh

i think some poems suit longer lines. and there's no rule that says you can use a comma, or period etc within a line.
i usually use shorter lines but i'm fine whatever the length as long as it's a decent poem.
so

i think some poems suit longer lines. and there's no rule that says you can use a comma, or period etc within a line.
i usually use shorter lines but i'm fine whatever the length as long as it's a decent poem.

doesn't relate to an affectation or effect on poetry?

bukowski rocked his way through poetry while teasdale sailed through it on a punt, both had similar line length but with different meter.

buks poems would in the main have been shite with shorter lines and teasdale could never be an emily dickinson.

and so yeah, if it works however it works, i'm fine with the line length used. in fact i'm not that sure that line length has that much importance at all when measured to the importance of other poetic devices.
Todd started a thread on the poetic line a while back that you might find pertinent.
(09-01-2013, 09:04 AM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Todd started a thread on the poetic line a while back that you might find pertinent.

I read through it but the only thing I found pertinent to our current discussion (length on speed of reading) pretty much just restated the exact statement that started the discussion.
Which would probably indicate that it's all been hashed out before... either in a thread about line or a thread about meter.
Don't mind me, I'm just old and jaded and tired of repeating myself. You whippersnappers carry on.

Just suggesting that other people might have already had things to say about these topics that keep popping up, and sometimes it's worth looking through them.
(09-01-2013, 09:09 AM)Leanne Wrote: [ -> ]Which would probably indicate that it's all been hashed out before... either in a thread about line or a thread about meter.

the fact that there is a genereal consensus was also stated in the first post of the thread. We were doing more of an indepth cause and effect look into the science that leads to it.

Plus, just because there is a consensus doesn't mean that it is axiomatic (also mentioned in the first post Wink )
Science? Hysterical
(09-01-2013, 08:16 AM)billy Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-01-2013, 02:49 AM)milo Wrote: [ -> ]I think the line as a breath is more one line of ip is the equivalent of one average breath, shorter lines get more lines forced into the same space.
what happens if you have asthmaHuh

you die. not today or tomorrow, but you do die.
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